I just received word that Jay Crull, aka "clean the breed", died recently - I have no other details yet. His doctor told him he needed a hobby because he was "too stressed" - he bought cattle and found himself right in the middle of the PHA mess. He was a good guy not afraid to speak his mind - I'll miss him at the OBE.
"clean the breed"
- Thread starter DL
- Start date
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red
Well-known member
Oh no! He was always at NAILE too. He came & got that cup of coffee from me last year.
He was a fairly young guy. Believe he had a young family too. Please let me know what you find out.
Red :'(
He was a fairly young guy. Believe he had a young family too. Please let me know what you find out.
Red :'(
JbarL
Well-known member
i did not no him....but my regrets to all those that did.....i was guided sometime ago to this site concerning a pha question.....at the time i started my herd, my origionaldragon lady said:
intent was to follow my breeders lead in his maine x stock. the pha question at that time(dec 06) was of interst of coarse but not my concern till aug/08. .....the topics ive observed and knowledge ive seen exchanged...and the experience shared is wonderful...........but all the kings horeses and all the kings men dont seem to be able to one two this thing and go on.....i hope this gentleman and those whom share his ideas can take some gratitude from knowing that a guy like me sure appreciates you all sharing
problems it "has" caused you ......because i am sitting here with decissions to make ......and your explaniantion both medically/pictorialy/ ect on pha / th / and all genetics are surpassed by none....but still the concerns here seem to linger......i am glad i have another 6/8 months before i have to make a decision on the cross with my agnus.
right now i guess its like granddad said....ford run good...dont raise hood............... my regrets to mr crull and his family and friends and thanks to those who have shared his concerns and remedies.... thanks .jbarl
red
Well-known member
He was only 49. About same age as me. Left behind a wife & 2 sons, one still at home.
Red
Red
Red -
What JBarL said is very nice and I bet his family would really like to hear it, but I sure doubt if they read this message board. Do you think you could find us an address so that those of us that want to could send the family a card or note? Thanks lotz.
What JBarL said is very nice and I bet his family would really like to hear it, but I sure doubt if they read this message board. Do you think you could find us an address so that those of us that want to could send the family a card or note? Thanks lotz.
red
Well-known member
here is a contact in the obituary
http://www.jconline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070722/OBITS/707220325/-1/buildasx
good idea Gypsy!
http://www.jconline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070722/OBITS/707220325/-1/buildasx
good idea Gypsy!
I have been asked by a couple of people for information re what Jay's thoughts were re the PHA situation in Maines - this was his proposal in August of last year. Jay was pretty passionate about the issue and his proposal was based on how Spider Lamb was handled and SUCCESSFULLY eliminated.
The following is a suggested program to rid the Maine Anjou Breed of PHA and/or TH
Phase 1 Mandatory testing and publication of results of All AI Sires and Donor Dams
Recommended testing of all Cattle
Phase 2 Recommended Testing of all cattle and results listed on Registration certificates as follows:
Non- Tested Carrier Non Carrier
Phase 3 Mandatory testing of all cattle and results listed on registration certificates as follows:
Carrier Non Carrier
Phase 4 Mandatory testing of all cattle and exclusion of all carriers from the herd book
Although for the good of the breed it would be best to jump right to phase 4, or to eliminate, say phase 2, I don't think the membership would be comfortable with that scenario. Phases 1 & 2 could be implemented almost simultaneously right away and Phase 3 ready to go by next calving season and Phase 4 the season after that. We must take a hard stand on this issue and not get mired down in trying to appease everyone, our customers will demand firm action and they deserve it.
We don't want to be known as backboneless as unnamed other breeds have been in dealing with similar problems. I also think we are going to find out who has the best interest of the breed at heart. Thanks for your time and suggestions Jay
The following is a suggested program to rid the Maine Anjou Breed of PHA and/or TH
Phase 1 Mandatory testing and publication of results of All AI Sires and Donor Dams
Recommended testing of all Cattle
Phase 2 Recommended Testing of all cattle and results listed on Registration certificates as follows:
Non- Tested Carrier Non Carrier
Phase 3 Mandatory testing of all cattle and results listed on registration certificates as follows:
Carrier Non Carrier
Phase 4 Mandatory testing of all cattle and exclusion of all carriers from the herd book
Although for the good of the breed it would be best to jump right to phase 4, or to eliminate, say phase 2, I don't think the membership would be comfortable with that scenario. Phases 1 & 2 could be implemented almost simultaneously right away and Phase 3 ready to go by next calving season and Phase 4 the season after that. We must take a hard stand on this issue and not get mired down in trying to appease everyone, our customers will demand firm action and they deserve it.
We don't want to be known as backboneless as unnamed other breeds have been in dealing with similar problems. I also think we are going to find out who has the best interest of the breed at heart. Thanks for your time and suggestions Jay
JbarL
Well-known member
dragon lady said:
thanks dl....i guess my firs st question would be....when wer these suggestions posted or entered and to who ?...was it a year ago....2 years ago....6 months ago???......
Phase 1 question: who sanctions the tests, and who is accountable for the publication and its validity ( the " association"???)
Phase 2 question: ......why has the "association" not insisted on testing a long time ago?
Phase 3 question :...( 2 part question) part 1:......why is the " association" who is accountable for registration not addressing this issue and how long has pha been a medically identified condition.
part 2:......was the association the one who tested/recognized and identified the defect??
if not the association then who discovered and identified the defect and when did all the this defect start showing up in association members??
Phase 4 question: who would benitit ( and for how long) from "not" having mandatory testing and subsequent exclusion from "the" herd book????.
i thought that was the herd books purpose?????
my question/comment:......how long will it take for the indecisiveness of an association or its members to act on a genetics issue such as this to make the breed undesirable for its present market? any and all suggestions/comments are welcome here...i have decisions to make on the maine x for my herd and it seems that all the folks are quite informative, but the association i would becoming a part of, seems to be separated in its concerns / actions / suggestions/ and direction.
what is the "best case scenario" 3 years from now , and what is the "worst case scenario" 3 years from now...?? assuming that the assoication responsible for its herd book continues at its present speed on rectification? thanks jbarl
red
Well-known member
Jbarl- not DL & too tall to play her on TV!
Jay posted that on Show Steers back in August of last year. The test wasn't available until around December of 2006. The AMMA now has a place on registration papers for the status of the animal but there are no rules staing you have to have animal tested to register. Only donor cows & AI bulls are required to be tested as of now. some sales are requiring the animal to be tested but the Denver sale the only one that is excluding carriers.
I'll let DL get the rest of your questions.
Red
Jay posted that on Show Steers back in August of last year. The test wasn't available until around December of 2006. The AMMA now has a place on registration papers for the status of the animal but there are no rules staing you have to have animal tested to register. Only donor cows & AI bulls are required to be tested as of now. some sales are requiring the animal to be tested but the Denver sale the only one that is excluding carriers.
I'll let DL get the rest of your questions.
Red
hey JbarL - Jay sent these suggestions to a bunch of people for comments and posted them on SS last year in the fall - he also send them to the AMAA - basically the board makes decisions of this type and although I think they could have been more aggressive the make up of the board suggests to me that perhaps some may be more interested in preserving their bottom line than preserving/promoting the breed.
To the AMAAs defense they are requiring TH and PHA negative results for the Denver sale. I think it should be mandatory for all AMAA sanctioned /sponsored events - if we are highlighting breeding stock how can a carrier of a lethal genetic defect represent the best the breed has to offer?
Dr Jon Beever and his crew (basically Barrel Racer) identified the gene and developed the test -
these people are scientists and I have no question that they have done absolutely the right thing to identify the defective gene, develop the genetic test and validate the test.
I hav eattached 2 articles that will describe the hunt for both the TH and PHA genes - it was basically Dr B, concerned and ethical breeders, and people like Dr Chuck Hannon and other vets running around the field collecting samples who were responsible for obtaining sufficient samples for the testing - I think the "onerous" protocol of both the AMAA re PHA and the ASA re TH were detrimental to obtaining samples.
Let me know after you read the articles if you still have questions....
knabe
Well-known member
as a hobby breeder, ugh, who mostly deals with terminal animals as a product, i would not like to see exclusion, or if that was decided, it should be allowable that a non-carrier from a carrier parent could be registered. in the end, it's not the line of animals it came from, it's the actual gene, and if breeders see genetics in carrier animals, yes, other than hair or posty legs, freaky fronted, that have merit, there should be an entry point for these animals that someone took the time to breed out the alleles. i support the 4 line items, except a provision for entry of a free animal from a carrier who might be excluded at some future point for being a carrier. I agree with the AMAA sponsored sales being tested and free. there should be however a provisio, i guess i'm repeating myself, for preserving lines, and yes, i'm thinking of paramount, even though many will say he's not deep enough, may be a tad narrow footed behind, he's horned, etc. the point of testing and putting it on the papers, is to use that information and since supposedly now, everyone knows what they are getting into, they should be allowed, with no outlet to sell a carrier without results. since maine's have a large number of known defects compared to other breeds, with these defects in most lines, we should not be having a zero tolerance, especially when other tests for other defects start to show up. obviously angus have a huge pending problem with no test with more numbers out there who will be carriers. other breeds probably have the same number of defects, but since their numbers are much more dispersed and not concentrated into a few founder sires. think if we had a test for all the defects today. would we eliminate all the carriers now? i think monkey mouth, PHA, TH are the same, granted two of them die, but if there is a test, people, well, me, would handle it the same way, breed them to free animals if i thought the carriers had some merit in spite of the defect. in the end, it will only take a few generations. looking back on the problem from a perspective of 100 years, it will be only a blip, and the really bad part will be the perpetual "hiding" of defects now matter what era we are in. take advantage of DNA, don't eliminate variation. it's really hard to break some linkages, and these two are not one of them. my perspective is not the show cattle, but the ancient marble on grass genetics. perhaps this is a myth, but i along with a couple of other people who have way more cows than me are pusuing a line breeding program to moderate size, increase more selection without "single trait" selection for carcass, which in the past has proven to be antagonistic to fertility. perhaps this is just one of those linkages which are hard to break, but it does seem interesting that carcass and fertility on grass, granted in heavy rainfall areas where grass was plentiful year round was noticeable over 100 years ago. obviously they were closer to shorthorns back then. perhaps they grew in size and "breeders" didn't feel the need to moderate them as oppossed to the shorthons they were crossed with, because they came from a different environment. oh well, just dreaming.
knabe said:
OK it must be rub me the wrong way day - where did you come up with that information? Lets see the Angus have 3 forms of dwarfism and fawn calf syndrome; herefords have epilepsy, some skin thing and dwarfism (2 kinds?), shorties have TH and PHA in their nonShorthorn + pedigrees, what other breeds have is really irrelevant to what happens to Maines - I think our biggest issue is that we are considered a "show breed" and often defects are discounted if the look is great.
PHA is a lethal genetic defect - why should we tolerate it?
knabe
Well-known member
an angus breeder i interned with said he discovered 7 defects in the late 70's to early 80's and dispersed them because of it. i'm thinking that some of the 7 may have been in fact the same defect, but i find it interesting that he thought there were more than three. what they are i don't know, but i totally respect him. i totally understand the lethality of the gene, all i'm saying is that there should be a reentry point for those that are using those lines, or who would like to go back to those lines for a to be discovered trait that was desirable, a way to get them registered. there would still be a zero tolerance for not knowing status, and even a zero tolerance for registering a carrier, but there should be a way to register a free animal from a carrier. i totally agree that the biggest issue is that maines are viewed as a show breed. i am saying that genes totally unrelated to show characteristics may be deposited in carrier animals unassociated with the current show lines.
JbarL
Well-known member
what is the percentage of affected pha cattle on the market or in tanks to date?
if no one can say for sure....then there is a very high percentage that me personally
will not get involved. not sure if there are others with the benifit from this info.
to avoid a possible problem...but someone would have to step up with some
positive news/progress before i simply go another way.. thanks jbarl
if no one can say for sure....then there is a very high percentage that me personally
will not get involved. not sure if there are others with the benifit from this info.
to avoid a possible problem...but someone would have to step up with some
positive news/progress before i simply go another way.. thanks jbarl
JbarL said:
It is impossible to give you a percentage - you can find PHA in registered Maines, Shorthorns, Simmies, and various crossbred cattle that may be registered in some fashion - Dexters (same gene, different defect).
In all but the Dexters the defect traces to Maine cattle, although we do not know the original dirty doer - the big 3 in terms of recent pedigrees are Draft Pick, Stinger and Payback (crossbred bull). We know that both Paramount and Dalton are PHA carriers (old fullblood bulls) but it is likely that the pedigrees of the big 3 are not accurate as they all cannot be tied to these old fullbloods. The chromosome involved and the genetic defect was originally identified using an informative pedigree of Draft Pick.
There is a pHA test - test your animals and steer clear of people who tell you they never had a PHA calf (but their cows aren't tested); they don't have to test because their cows are crossbreds or Shorthorns; they never heard of PHA; they refuse to test an animal you are interested in.
afhm
Well-known member
If my memory serves me correctly I read and heard some where that Maine's have the smallest lung capacity of all cattle breeds. If that is correct then some people could consider that a defect like some people consider structural problems in clubby bred cattle a defect. One of the worst things out there to me is when a cow or bull has to stand in the creel or pond all day to properly cool themselves. Not only are they harder doing cattle that are in poorer shape but there is alot of foot rot to deal with, not to mention the occasional bogged down cow that has to be rescued. I guess that lung capacity could be the next big problem to solve in the cattle industry, it would be nice to know which lines have the larger and smaller lung capacities. Probably a pipe dream, but could be a useful one, I mean bulls are already promoted on hair quality why not lung capacity. My rant for the day, now I feel better.
That sounds like a rural legend to me - would like a source. From the necropsy I've done and seen I would have to say hog wash, but I will wash the hog if you prove me wrong! I'm glad you feel better - there might be a greater chance of measuring lung capacity in various breeds if there were racing stock. Not sure that it would be useful information since several other things are involved in heat regulation.
afhm said:
I raise Maines in Southeastern New Mexico, which is not usually considered the coolest part of the planet and I've not seen any evidence that they have any trouble cooling themselves properly, not many ponds on my place, at least not since the new water lines have been put in. (lol) The Maine's I have, have outperformed the Brangus cattle I've had in everyway. Better breed back, earlier maturity, bigger calves at weaning, longevity and enormously better temperament. Supposedly, Brangus are better suited to the hotter climates.
JBarL don't give up your interest in Maines, I have a lot of Angus in my older cows in the commercial cow herd and the Maine bulls on the Angus cows are an awesome cross. DL is right, there is no perfect breed, (except of course the beefpaca)
they all have some problem or defect (don't we all). But IMHO I think that the Maine-Anjou breed has a lot to offer.
JbarL
Well-known member
Gypsy said:afhm said:
I raise Maines in Southeastern New Mexico, which is not usually considered the coolest part of the planet and I've not seen any evidence that they have any trouble cooling themselves properly, not many ponds on my place, at least not since the new water lines have been put in. (lol) The Maine's I have, have outperformed the Brangus cattle I've had in everyway. Better breed back, earlier maturity, bigger calves at weaning, longevity and enormously better temperament. Supposedly, Brangus are better suited to the hotter climates.
JBarL don't give up your interest in Maines, I have a lot of Angus in my older cows in the commercial cow herd and the Maine bulls on the Angus cows are an awesome cross. DL is right, there is no perfect breed, (except of course the beefpaca)
i was really not expecting an " exact" percentage of infected stock..i was .just wanting to no if anyone really had any idea of the actual broad scope of the defect and future direction the breed is currently in and what the " game plan " that was in place to control it. i am quite familiar with the defects in other breeds, and the seemingly successful direction they have taken to control and eliminate them. i cannot agree with you more on the fact that maine bulls on angus cows are an awesome product....and i am doing all i can to get that " warm, fuzzy feeling " in my decision to introduce them to my operation.
the problem is the only thing i have been able to "positively" gather from all this info and input on the organized direction of the breed....is controversy......i quess i may have asked to many questons at one time in my previous post reply in my search for the warm fuzzy feeling that seems to be missing here.....sooooooooo.....i will be adding a new post and lets just forget the
lack of association commitment to address these issues in a seemingly timely/unified fashion, and just address it like trying to mow a football field while they are playing the game approach.....lets call the new post.....maine futures
thanks jbarl
