Flushing a virgin heifer

[zak]

Besides not know what she works on what are the cons of flushing a virgin heifer?


Zak

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

i think if the heifer is worth a lot of money it is a good investment, almost an insurance just incase something does go wrong with her.

 

[OH Breeder]

Food for thought. What standard are you holding that heifer to to produce good calves? She has no history of being a cow and what makes her so good you want to reproduce her. If she had a great show career maybe she may never produce a calf as good as her. Lots of money in my book on unproven animal. Just a thought. I know people flush them and so folks have great success. I think at one time there was a thread that talked about great show females that never did produce anything.

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

i see people spending 20k to 30k on a donor quality Shorthorn heifer, heck yea i would spend another grand to get some embryos in the tank.

 

[Bulldaddy]

Besides not know what she works on what are the cons of flushing a virgin heifer?


Zak

They usually won't produce as many embryos as a three or four year old cow.

 

[OH Breeder]

i see people spending 20k to 30k on a donor quality Shorthorn heifer, heck yea i would spend another grand to get some embryos in the tank.

Serious question you bring up a valid point. What is donor quality? What do you use to evaluate your donor pen? ( You meaning "You" in general)
What if they turn out to be duds? Becuz you didn't test the female out what if they don't milk and can't raise a calf? Was it worth it to have embryo's in the tank?
I have watched a few of the big sales and seen a few heifers sell high. I have also looked at the ASA data base and never seen a calf out of them or never heard from them again. So would it be better off spend that money on a clone for a donor quality show heifer? Not trying to be a smart ass just posing the question.

 

[Cowboy]

I have been asked to flush alot of hfrs, and I almost always have a very serious talk with the owners. There are a hundred things that folks need to consider, and the previous responses are all good points. Here are mine.

First off, a virgin hfr is completely unpredictable as far as response and fertility goes. Most, if not nearly all of them, are so darn sensitive to hormones you can and will blow thier brains out if you are not extremely carefull. What good are 30-40 eggs from a hfr if they are bad or so poor you get nothing??

The hfrs I have agreed to do are always older hfrs, at least 18 months or older when she gets here. These are at least big enough to comfortably work in, but alot of them are still very small in the pelvic.

An ovary in a normal hfr is the size of a nickle -- or smaller alot of the times. Go ahead and go thru the Superovulation process, and her ovaries are going to be 10 times that -- meybe 20 times that big. Have any of you out there heard of SCAR tissue?? It happens alot, and once done, it is almost always irreversible. Why ruin a potentially high dollar animal for a maybe?? We have gotten good eggs form some hfrs, sure -- alot of folks do -- but how about the ones that blow out, will never breed again, or do settle and continually abort in the 1st trimester.?

I guess , if she were mine, she would have to have at least one calf before I would even consider it -- money or no money!

That is my personal opinion folks, do them at your own risk, and it is pretty high at that!

Terry

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

when i comes to donors its all about line bred genetics, most of the time they are out of proven gentics. If i was going to spend serious money i want a full sib to a national champion i want a good WHR 3r52 calf,SS Augusta Pride 3127, maybe a full sib to bloodstone, something out of the good mona lisa. or a full sib to just about all of Sullivans donor pen. But no i personally would not flush her until after she has her first calf, i think i would pull tissue samples incase i need to clone her and breed her to a red angus bull the first time around. But for now ill continue to dream, unless anyone wants to hook me up with some donor welfare.

 

[RSC]

I have done it twice with descent success.  That being said,  I would be cautious and spend some time studying her pedigree to select the right mating.  The two that I did it with, I was very confident in the cow family that they were out of. If she is bred to raise steers, ET allows you to use a clubby bull on her for the first calf crop and return some investment quicker.

I would spend time checking out the protical of several ET Techs to  see how they will set up a heifer.  IMO, You are much better to get 2 embryos out of a heifer flush than you are 22.  My point is make sure they are using a much lower dose than they normally use for a cow.  You don't want to over stimulate and ruin her career.  Cowboy is a good person to PM if you have questions about doses for heifers.

Some may say how do you know that a virgin heifer is donor material.  You don't but sometime we need a little luck to.  We got lucky and have sold a couple for 5k+ out of a virgin heifer flush.  If you are going to show this heifer, she may not be that fertile after her show career anyway.  This can be insurance to make sure you get some offspring out of her.

Good Luck,

Tony

 

[simtal]

Id say your have better odds are vegas compared to success with flushing heifers

 

[RSC]

Id say your have better odds are vegas compared to success with flushing heifers

Would you expand on this please? How bout this scenario:  If you bred your heifer to a calving ease Angus bull first year and she is a show heifer that doesn't breed back 2nd year to AI so you have a later calf and come 3rd year you have to make the decision to hold her over or market a later born calf, does ET sound all that bad for a SHOW heifer?   I am not always for flushing a heifer by any means, but IMO it is not as cut and dry as some make it out to be.  For show heifers, I personallly think it has a fit.  


Tony

 

[OH Breeder]

Id say your have better odds are vegas compared to success with flushing heifers

Would you expand on this please? How bout this scenario:  If you bred your heifer to a calving ease Angus bull first year and she is a show heifer that doesn't breed back 2nd year to AI so you have a later calf and come 3rd year you have to make the decision to hold her over or market a later born calf, does ET sound all that bad for a SHOW heifer?   I am not always for flushing a heifer by any means, but IMO it is not as cut and dry as some make it out to be.  For show heifers, I personallly think it has a fit.  


Tony

Your statement is exactly true- it all boils down to what you think fits. If you have the disposiable income to flush virgin heifers more power to those.
I am not a gambler and I hate Vegas. That may be why I like to head for something more proven. I don't think its wrong, just wrong for us.
Our operation runs on pretty tight funds. We raise freezer beef and try to sell a few calves. If I purchased a show heifer she is exactly that. A show heifer, how will I know her productiveness as a cow without testing it out?
I have flushed one female. She didn't do alot of winning but as a cow produced a great calf which she had unassisted. She milked well and was an excellent first time mother. Now if i could just get more females instead of steers out of her eggs. ???

So Zak- if you want to flush that little lady go for it. Cowboy has lots more experience than most of us. His advice seems as though it is spot on (for me).

 

[CAB]

Zak some PPL have started just flushing their good heifers 2/3 times on their natural heat cycles instead of  risking damage to their heifers. If she starts cycling early you may could get 4/5 embryos B4 you need to let her settle. This way you could also try some different matings to see what might be best down the road. Just an idea.

 

[simtal]

Its been my experience that virgin heifers never flush well (heard many stories where people took a big time heifer, flushed her, and got like 3 eggs-all unfreezeable. Not saying it cant work but often times it doesnt).

 

[Freddy]

Your taking a big risk of ruining her totally for a chance of getting a few pooer quality eggs ,I have seen it done by some good cattlemen an they never continue doing it ...

 

[sam1988]

I have had good results on 4 heifers and they all bred back easily.. ..maybe I was lucky, but I would consider doing one again.  I hate to wait to see how they can do until their second or third calf when we breed them to something other than a calving ease bull.  I want some return on my investment.

 

[Freddy]

This flushing I thought a little more about it an I can see it definitely depends on your herd, some of these younger people can maybe afford the risk an it be a very sensible choice.  We have been in it a while have cows hat proably need fluhed but a lot of times stick with the proven ones,,, so in this situation it sure could work.. One of my friends did it an it has worked for him most of the time real well ....  Its possible to go to some of these sales an buy donors that don't flush for you real good an they are older cows.  Best of luck ,an it sure takes some of that sometimes in this flushing ,how would you like flushing a horse ..............