How soon to breed post-flush
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WWS
Well-known member
We breed the very next heat and that is what our embryologist told us. We have stuck them every time on the next heat after embryo recovery which is about 5 days, hope this doesnt jinx the one that will cycle back this weekend.
Cowboy
Well-known member
Wright Way Sims -- you are ONE LUCKY COWMAN -- here is why I say that!
1st -- the only way you will get a heat in 5 days from a flushed donor is -- SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT with more Lutelyse or equivelant. That works to prevent pregnancy, I agree, but it is NOT good for the system IE -- How many cystic donors have been treated and retreated and retreated??
I never shoot a donor on flush day -- I simply infuse them with Biomycin-C, let them go. They cycle almost like clockwork back in 14 days, which would be thier normal 21 days from the time they were in heat for the flush.
2nd -- If you have a very fertile donor, like most Simmi's, by inducing them flush day and rebreeding them too soon, alot of them, can and WILL double ovulate and then you get twins.
A cow who has been superovulated will have a large amount of tissue on thier ovaries, this is Luteal tissue from all the CL's. I takes some time for this to regress and heal back to normal. If you have ever felt a donor on flush day you would know what I mean.
My only reason for posting this is --- to ask you to be CAREFULL -- in fact -- I never tell my people to breed until thier second natural heat after the flush. Let her heal up, get the hormones out of the way and go from there.
As I said -- I have seen hundreds of messed up donors, you are one lucky man if that is common practice at your place.
Not trying to upset you, but there is more than one reason I do ET, and it is not just the income, I love the work, I love the cows, and most of the people I work with -- it is my job to protect the future of those donors. Sorry to be so ademant about this, but this is one topic I could not let go without adding to it.
I hope everything continues to go well -- this worries me a great deal.
Good luck --
Terry
1st -- the only way you will get a heat in 5 days from a flushed donor is -- SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT with more Lutelyse or equivelant. That works to prevent pregnancy, I agree, but it is NOT good for the system IE -- How many cystic donors have been treated and retreated and retreated??
I never shoot a donor on flush day -- I simply infuse them with Biomycin-C, let them go. They cycle almost like clockwork back in 14 days, which would be thier normal 21 days from the time they were in heat for the flush.
2nd -- If you have a very fertile donor, like most Simmi's, by inducing them flush day and rebreeding them too soon, alot of them, can and WILL double ovulate and then you get twins.
A cow who has been superovulated will have a large amount of tissue on thier ovaries, this is Luteal tissue from all the CL's. I takes some time for this to regress and heal back to normal. If you have ever felt a donor on flush day you would know what I mean.
My only reason for posting this is --- to ask you to be CAREFULL -- in fact -- I never tell my people to breed until thier second natural heat after the flush. Let her heal up, get the hormones out of the way and go from there.
As I said -- I have seen hundreds of messed up donors, you are one lucky man if that is common practice at your place.
Not trying to upset you, but there is more than one reason I do ET, and it is not just the income, I love the work, I love the cows, and most of the people I work with -- it is my job to protect the future of those donors. Sorry to be so ademant about this, but this is one topic I could not let go without adding to it.
I hope everything continues to go well -- this worries me a great deal.
Good luck --
Terry
Davis Shorthorns
Well-known member
kanshow said:
me to, probably the same place though.
Sorry Cowboy. I must disagree with you also.Cowboy said:
I use a very respected Vet Clinic with four Vets that specialize in Cattle Embryo Transfer (I do not care to give the Clinic's name or Dr's name on the internet). They routinely inject Lutalyse or Estrumate, which you inject 1/2 the ml of Lutalyse), immediately post flushing to donor cow. The main reason to then make the donor cow release any embryos that may have meen missed during the flush process, so as to eliminate a donor being bred and having a multiple birth. After the injection of PG, the donor cow should come into heat, breed, and settle.
Cowboy,
So if I understand you I can infuse her post flush (how much and what dilution) w/Biomycin... and turn her out with the bull? What is my risk of multiples?
Is the best answer to lut her on flush day, pass her over in 5 days and breed her natural 21 days later?
She's an older cow and I really can't afford to mess her up, so I would prefer to err on the side of caution.
I'm afraid I'm getting more questions than I began with?
Thanks for any help...
Cowman
So if I understand you I can infuse her post flush (how much and what dilution) w/Biomycin... and turn her out with the bull? What is my risk of multiples?
Is the best answer to lut her on flush day, pass her over in 5 days and breed her natural 21 days later?
She's an older cow and I really can't afford to mess her up, so I would prefer to err on the side of caution.
I'm afraid I'm getting more questions than I began with?
Thanks for any help...
Cowman
It's my experience here that everyone who has posted is correct in their theory. I think it's BEST to do protocol like Cowboy describes. However it certainly CAN and IS done like the others stated all the time.
It's like wearing a seat belt or not. Most of the time you go for a drive you don't have a wreck. Once in a while you might have a fender bender but no one is hurt. And then, although not as likely, but sometimes, people get killed in a car crash because they didn't wear a seat belt. Doing as Terry suggested is like wearing a seat belt, it's taking the highest level of precaution. If you drive and happen not to encounter that bad drive, you'll be fine to drive without it. If you happen to have bad luck, and we all do, it can be bad.
What has always worked well for us is to infuse as well as give Lutylase after flushing and then to rebreed the next heat, whether that be induced or natural. Take it for what it's worth.
It's like wearing a seat belt or not. Most of the time you go for a drive you don't have a wreck. Once in a while you might have a fender bender but no one is hurt. And then, although not as likely, but sometimes, people get killed in a car crash because they didn't wear a seat belt. Doing as Terry suggested is like wearing a seat belt, it's taking the highest level of precaution. If you drive and happen not to encounter that bad drive, you'll be fine to drive without it. If you happen to have bad luck, and we all do, it can be bad.
What has always worked well for us is to infuse as well as give Lutylase after flushing and then to rebreed the next heat, whether that be induced or natural. Take it for what it's worth.
jbw
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2009
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I'm with cowboy on this one. You can give lut and rebreed, it's done all the time. What cowboy is saying is that the[ least offensive] for lack of a better term, is let her heal up and get on cycle naturally. The other way is fine and you might not have touble but when you blow one up you'll wish you weren't so agressive. My last one I flushed was givin lut the day of the flush, I skipped a cycle so she wouldn't twin, she had calves last week, yep, twins! There is alot of theories out there but I like the way cowboy does it, for the longetivity of the donar. my2cents
ROAD WARRIOR
Well-known member
From my personal experience I can tell you that cowboy is right. I had a donor flushed at another facility that followed your protocol and it was a train wreck! It took the better part of a year to get her back to where she should have been. Not a particularly good thing when her embrios were averaging $800 a piece, let alone the cost of her natural calf. 30 days is a pretty short time span when compared to 9 - 10 months when it comes to the bottom line. RW
Cowboy
Well-known member
SEA --
Sorry Cowboy. I must disagree with you also.
I use a very respected Vet Clinic with four Vets that specialize in Cattle Embryo Transfer (I do not care to give the Clinic's name or Dr's name on the internet). They routinely inject Lutalyse or Estrumate, which you inject 1/2 the ml of Lutalyse), immediately post flushing to donor cow. The main reason to then make the donor cow release any embryos that may have meen missed during the flush process, so as to eliminate a donor being bred and having a multiple birth. After the injection of PG, the donor cow should come into heat, breed, and settle.
==============
As I wrote in my first response, the ONLY reason to inject a donor on flush day is to prevent pregnancy -- I do not inject anything. I infuse them with the commercially available uterin infusion product called Biomycin-C (Made to prevent metritis). I do this for two reasons -- to PREVENT pregnancy, but also to prevent ANY chance of uterin infection from the procedure. I am not saying the first way can not be done, it IS done all the time as many of you have indicated.
I will say this however -- after 28 years and over 7000 donors, I can still count on one hand the number of donors who have gone cystic at my place after a flush! That is something I am very proud of -- and I have gotten literaly hundreds of cows over the years who came here from other places that were or had been cystic. Not a good deal folks.
The way I do it -- your donor will cycle on her own in 14 days from the flush -- being her first natural heat. She will then 21 more days and have her second heat -- this could be used to breed her, or start over. If this is day -0- again, she will flush routinely year round at 60 days apart -- give or take a couple. That is called consistency -- not hard on the cows, it is safe!
I see no reason to both infuse and inject -- and yes SEA I do know the differnece between the natural Lut and the synthetic Estrumate. Like I said -- I had no intent on upsetting any one, but I did want to make sure you realized the chances you were taking from doing that procedure.
To answer Cowman -
Sorry to confuse you sir - not my intent.
I simply tell all my customers to wait until her second heat to breed. Seeing how I do not inject them, her 1st heat would be 14 days post flush (Actually 21 days from when you bred her to get flushed) Her next heat would be another 21 days -- breed her then natural or A-I.
You CAN breed them on their first heat - but be warned of the possibilities. Residual hormones on fertile donors will at times cause the formation and release of multiple follicles, which could result in twins or worse.
Not trying to sound like I know every thing here -- but I only use tried and proven things, I am very comfortable using these methods, and have never been sorry. We have a donor here now that is very fragile to infection -- and I had to skip one heat on her to make sure she was clean, she flushes next weekend and looks to be 100% again.
Day in and day out, I still feel this is the best for the donors and results in the least amount of risk for damage. I'm not planning on reading any newly released methedology, and I wish every one the very best of luck who ever you use or whatever way they do it.
Things are not broke here so I see no reason to change or try to fix it! Old school I guess. I don't want this to get out of hand, so I'll just leave it there -- I am happy with the way things work here, and we work very hard to protect your money -- that being your donors! I sleep very well at night knowing that.
Good luck to all --
Terry
Sorry Cowboy. I must disagree with you also.
I use a very respected Vet Clinic with four Vets that specialize in Cattle Embryo Transfer (I do not care to give the Clinic's name or Dr's name on the internet). They routinely inject Lutalyse or Estrumate, which you inject 1/2 the ml of Lutalyse), immediately post flushing to donor cow. The main reason to then make the donor cow release any embryos that may have meen missed during the flush process, so as to eliminate a donor being bred and having a multiple birth. After the injection of PG, the donor cow should come into heat, breed, and settle.
==============
As I wrote in my first response, the ONLY reason to inject a donor on flush day is to prevent pregnancy -- I do not inject anything. I infuse them with the commercially available uterin infusion product called Biomycin-C (Made to prevent metritis). I do this for two reasons -- to PREVENT pregnancy, but also to prevent ANY chance of uterin infection from the procedure. I am not saying the first way can not be done, it IS done all the time as many of you have indicated.
I will say this however -- after 28 years and over 7000 donors, I can still count on one hand the number of donors who have gone cystic at my place after a flush! That is something I am very proud of -- and I have gotten literaly hundreds of cows over the years who came here from other places that were or had been cystic. Not a good deal folks.
The way I do it -- your donor will cycle on her own in 14 days from the flush -- being her first natural heat. She will then 21 more days and have her second heat -- this could be used to breed her, or start over. If this is day -0- again, she will flush routinely year round at 60 days apart -- give or take a couple. That is called consistency -- not hard on the cows, it is safe!
I see no reason to both infuse and inject -- and yes SEA I do know the differnece between the natural Lut and the synthetic Estrumate. Like I said -- I had no intent on upsetting any one, but I did want to make sure you realized the chances you were taking from doing that procedure.
To answer Cowman -
Sorry to confuse you sir - not my intent.
I simply tell all my customers to wait until her second heat to breed. Seeing how I do not inject them, her 1st heat would be 14 days post flush (Actually 21 days from when you bred her to get flushed) Her next heat would be another 21 days -- breed her then natural or A-I.
You CAN breed them on their first heat - but be warned of the possibilities. Residual hormones on fertile donors will at times cause the formation and release of multiple follicles, which could result in twins or worse.
Not trying to sound like I know every thing here -- but I only use tried and proven things, I am very comfortable using these methods, and have never been sorry. We have a donor here now that is very fragile to infection -- and I had to skip one heat on her to make sure she was clean, she flushes next weekend and looks to be 100% again.
Day in and day out, I still feel this is the best for the donors and results in the least amount of risk for damage. I'm not planning on reading any newly released methedology, and I wish every one the very best of luck who ever you use or whatever way they do it.
Things are not broke here so I see no reason to change or try to fix it! Old school I guess. I don't want this to get out of hand, so I'll just leave it there -- I am happy with the way things work here, and we work very hard to protect your money -- that being your donors! I sleep very well at night knowing that.
Good luck to all --
Terry
oakbar
Well-known member
Hey Cowboy,
Thanks for giving us another way to look at the situation. Also, thanks for the discussion we had yesterday--you gave me some things to think about!!
Always appreciate your input!!
Oakbar
Thanks for giving us another way to look at the situation. Also, thanks for the discussion we had yesterday--you gave me some things to think about!!
Always appreciate your input!!
Oakbar
Sorry Cowboy, I did not intend to infer that you did not know the difference between Lutalyse and Estrumate. Only mentioned the them to state they are the only two drugs my vet uses post flush, (not simultaneously). He uses this practice and then says we may breed on the next heat which can come in the next 3 to 5 days. He has never infused one of my donors, and I did not understand your procedure of infusion, until after your second post. I must plead ignorance on the infusing method of removing any "embryos left behind" during the flush. Thank you for helping to educate me.
I appreciate all of your knowlegde, your years of experience, and your willingness to give of your time, and help all of us.
Thank you,
I appreciate all of your knowlegde, your years of experience, and your willingness to give of your time, and help all of us.
Thank you,
Cowboy
Well-known member
Well thank you SEA -- I appreciate that.
My only reason to post to this in the first place was to try and dicourage every one from thinking it is OK to breed your donor from an induced heat THAT soon after you just flushed. Give her some time, if you absolutely must inject her flush day -- atleast wait until she cycles back in another 21 days from that.
Protect your donors folks, they are hard to come by!
Infusing them just is another way to further protect that environemnt and is the least invasive on the ovaries. Scar tissue from all the ups and downs is your worst enemy.
Thanks again -- Terry
My only reason to post to this in the first place was to try and dicourage every one from thinking it is OK to breed your donor from an induced heat THAT soon after you just flushed. Give her some time, if you absolutely must inject her flush day -- atleast wait until she cycles back in another 21 days from that.
Protect your donors folks, they are hard to come by!
Infusing them just is another way to further protect that environemnt and is the least invasive on the ovaries. Scar tissue from all the ups and downs is your worst enemy.
Thanks again -- Terry
WWS
Well-known member
I am glad to hear others thoughts and opinions. We are only in our 3rd year of heavy E.T. work and we are going on the recommendations of our embryologist we are fortunate to have as he has been very helpful. We have been relying on his experience in getting advice since we are still getting our feet wet, he does over 300 flushes a year himself and has been doing this for 30 years much like yourself. He is very helpful in answering questions on techniques and other topics such as intervals, synchronizing recips, etc. so this will give me some material to pick his brain about. I do appreciate the comments as i said before and i will see what he says and might reply on here about that but for now i will go with his recommendation as he has about the same experience as yourself. You learn something new every day as i didnt know about the infusing. Also cowboy what is the best way to sync recips together so that i can get a bigger group together instead of just giving lut and some of them not responding?
Thanks
Wyatt
Thanks
Wyatt
Cowboy
Well-known member
I probably know your ET tech, you are in Western Ill -- the one I'm thinking of is over some where close to KC and Topeka area?? Or there's another one up at Jacksonville -- have talked to both of them some time ago, both do it the way you describe. Just be carefull about shooting them too much, and restarting or breeding right after -- some guys just go for the gusto, and don't think long term like I do. I consider my "Job" to be to not only produce embryos for you the customer, but also, I am in charge of protecting your investment -- that being your donors. Everything I do here has that end goal in mind -- without exception.
RECIPS --
It seems -- unless you have a hundred head of open cows waiting, the best way to get them together is to use the Cidr-Gnrh-Estrumate rpogram
Select your target date for transplants. This would be 7 days after your recips are in heat. Work your way back to the start date as follows.
Day -0- -- gather cows any time during the day and implant Cidr, give 2 ml of Gnrh (Different brand names are out there)
I tend to tell folks to go 7.5 days with the Cidr in, this helps get a full 7 days of hormones inthem and you won't have to worry so much about when you get done putting them in.
In the morning of the 8th day (7.5 days actually) pull your Cidr's and give them all 2 ml Estrumate (preffered ) or 5ml Lutelyse.
The recips will be predominately in heat on the second day, 40 to 56 hours is average.
7 days later -- transfer using the average tim eof hear for the average cow, and based on your embryo stage and quality! Get with your ET tech for more details.
Example -- you want to transfer on 5-1
Your recips need to be in heat on 4-24 average.
You would implant the Cidrs in the afternoon of 4-14, and pull them out inthe morning of 4-22 .
This is a good program and works quit well for most people. I like Estrumate better due to it's ability to produce a better CL on the ovary, resulting in higher hormone levels later and usually higher conception. Not always but usualy!
Best of luck form here on -- just be carefull with shooting your donors, I do not like to do that -- there are just too many possible problems with that theory.
Terry
RECIPS --
It seems -- unless you have a hundred head of open cows waiting, the best way to get them together is to use the Cidr-Gnrh-Estrumate rpogram
Select your target date for transplants. This would be 7 days after your recips are in heat. Work your way back to the start date as follows.
Day -0- -- gather cows any time during the day and implant Cidr, give 2 ml of Gnrh (Different brand names are out there)
I tend to tell folks to go 7.5 days with the Cidr in, this helps get a full 7 days of hormones inthem and you won't have to worry so much about when you get done putting them in.
In the morning of the 8th day (7.5 days actually) pull your Cidr's and give them all 2 ml Estrumate (preffered ) or 5ml Lutelyse.
The recips will be predominately in heat on the second day, 40 to 56 hours is average.
7 days later -- transfer using the average tim eof hear for the average cow, and based on your embryo stage and quality! Get with your ET tech for more details.
Example -- you want to transfer on 5-1
Your recips need to be in heat on 4-24 average.
You would implant the Cidrs in the afternoon of 4-14, and pull them out inthe morning of 4-22 .
This is a good program and works quit well for most people. I like Estrumate better due to it's ability to produce a better CL on the ovary, resulting in higher hormone levels later and usually higher conception. Not always but usualy!
Best of luck form here on -- just be carefull with shooting your donors, I do not like to do that -- there are just too many possible problems with that theory.
Terry
WWS
Well-known member
Thanks for the info. I was wrong on the number of years i looked it up he is in year 30 doing this on his own but neither of those mentioned are my embryologist he is alot closer to home. There is different opinions on everything as he does not recommend using cidrs and neither have few others i have talked to. The only way he says to do it is if you cidrs to time them together and then wait the next cycle so they cycle once to clean out where the cidr had been in. He has said that it is usually a home run or disaster in terms of conception rates with cidrs and e.t. Thanks for the info again cause i did not know that estrumate might improve my conception rate, cause the more the better.
Thanks,
Wyatt
Thanks,
Wyatt