Loving farm sale

[aj]

My pick is lot 3.

 

[RyanChandler]

I like 5.

 

[Okotoks]

The extra performance in the Wolf Ridge President C20X (by Kaper) lots 7 and 12 is pretty impressive (thumbsup)

Here is a link to the sale catalogue.

http://www.livestockdirect.net/sale/loving2015/catalog 

Had the wrong link here is a correct one!

 

[OH Breeder]

http://www.livestockdirect.net/sale/loving2015/catalog

Loving Farm Sale catalog Link is also on the farm website.

Above link fixed

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I agree-there were a couple really good ones last year as well O0

 

[kiblercattle]

Strictly judging by pictures and nothing else, it would appear the bulls aren't as good as last year. Last years catalog I could hardly find a picture of one that I didn't like. But it's never good to rely on a picture solely.

 

[JTM]

At first glance I like 10,18, and 22.

 

[OH Breeder]

At first glance I like 10,18, and 22.

Agree like 10 and 11 for genetics and  looks.

 

[librarian]

30. And 11.
Be nice to see 11 full roan.
Oh, and they can throw the 47 heifer on the truck also.

 

[cowboy_nyk]

I mean no disrespect, but if they want to do the Shorthorn plus thing, could they not find some better Angus genetics to work with?  Those hybrid calves are much poorer than the rest of the offering and you can't tell me it's because there are not enough good blacks out there to source genetics from.  Is it because they plan to sell those commercially so it's not worth investing in better genetics?

 

[r.n.reed]

I think that the lot 7 is a bull that can satisfy all the various camps within the breed from calving ease at all cost to optimum to performance at all costs.I think that they could even agree that he took a bad picture.I congratulate the Lovings for providing all of this information that allows us to see the big picture.An 80lb birthweight and he is not a freak,if you look through the catalog the c20's have 1 87lb BW,1 71LB BW and the rest range from 77-84.An 852lb weaning weight which is amazing by itself and then consider his dam weighs 1250lbs and she is 5 years old.She is about done growing.He didn't quit however and weighed 1331 at a year and still under a 6 frame.Safely over an 1'' per 100 on ribeye and a marbling epd in the top 10% of the breed.Dollar values top 15% for calving ease,top 10 for feedlot and top 1 percent for British maternal index.This is for the BREED not the sale offering.Better yet he is not a fire and ice deal look up his sire and dam's dollar values.Ad to this the fact that he comes from a reliable operation that has collected data for generations and has not flitted from one single trait fad to another.Just look at the continuity through out the catalog.

 

[RyanChandler]

Interesting to see the different bulls people prefer.  You know it's a quality offering when that happens.  I still prefer lot 5.  I think a bull with his performance profile has a greater chance of replicating himself than maybe some of the others. 

r.n. reed mentioned the c20s.  I noticed there's quite a bit of difference between his actual performance and the performance of his sons.  I  figured that the environment in Illinois would be much more conducive to eight.hundred.pound. weaning weights than what I saw in Pawnee Rock but maybe not?

In analyzing and interpreting the data, what should a prospective buyer expect out of lot 7? Or any of the 800+lb weaning weight bulls ? Should you expect their actual performance to be replicated or would you expect it to revert to that of their sires and mgs? Is their actual performance or their epd profiles better representations of their offspring's performance potential? Last year, lot 7's 7155 dam weaned a 4508 calf that was almost 200lbs lighter.  Does 4508 have that much less performance than his c20x son? Both their profiles and their actual performance would suggest both sire and son are very similar in terms of growth so I'm not sure how to interpret what I'm seeing.

With the new WHR program being more documentation oriented, I think it's imperative to not only know how to read the data but, more importantly, how to interpret the data as useful information.  When actual performance and epd profiles don't coincide, which do you discard as data and which do you use as useful information?

 

[aj]

One thing I enjoy seeing........a Shorthorn plus that isn't a th carrier.......a Shorthorn plus that isn't a pha carrier.....a Shorthorn plus that isn't a ds carrier. A Shorthorn plus that isn't a blue roan. Just my opinion.

 

[r.n.reed]

Interesting to see the different bulls people prefer.  You know it's a quality offering when that happens.  I still prefer lot 5.  I think a bull with his performance profile has a greater chance of replicating himself than maybe some of the others. 

r.n. reed mentioned the c20s.  I noticed there's quite a bit of difference between his actual performance and the performance of his sons.  I  figured that the environment in Illinois would be much more conducive to eight.hundred.pound. weaning weights than what I saw in Pawnee Rock but maybe not?

In analyzing and interpreting the data, what should a prospective buyer expect out of lot 7? Or any of the 800+lb weaning weight bulls ? Should you expect their actual performance to be replicated or would you expect it to revert to that of their sires and mgs? Is their actual performance or their epd profiles better representations of their offspring's performance potential? Last year, lot 7's 7155 dam weaned a 4508 calf that was almost 200lbs lighter.  Does 4508 have that much less performance than his c20x son? Both their profiles and their actual performance would suggest both sire and son are very similar in terms of growth so I'm not sure how to interpret what I'm seeing.

With the new WHR program being more documentation oriented, I think it's imperative to not only know how to read the data but, more importantly, how to interpret the data as useful information.  When actual performance and epd profiles don't coincide, which do you discard as data and which do you use as useful information?

You raise some excellent points and questions XBAR and I appreciate the fact that you do not just take things at face value.I will address what I can, the rest may take a generation or two before we get the answers.Let me first say that no matter what the breeding or environment, the achievments of this calf are remarkable and more encouraging is the fact that there are other similar bred animals in the sale that are in the ball park,lot 12 and 74 for example.
In Illinois we have good grass for about 6 weeks in May and the first part of June,about one in 3 years you get a decent rain in the late summer and get some good grazing in September or early October.C20 was born May 5th so about the time he was ready to start chowing down the feed value went down and the quantity of milk production suffered as well.I dont creep so he just plain roughed it.I might ad that being a linebred calf probably repressed his performance to some degree as well.We have the heat and humidity of the deep south in the summer and the bitter cold of the far north in the winter.A mouthful of that buffalo grass in Kansas and Nebraska is worth a small square bale here. I have been to Haumonts and Marty's in the middle of July with the pastures looking like someones lawn that had been sprayed with roundup and the cattle were all sleek and in great condition.
As to the differences between last years 4508 son and the C20 son this year we can answer some questions raise some possibilities and ask more questions.There is more performance in C20 than 4508,C20 is linebred so maybe an extra shot of vigor.The cow has potentialy entered her prime.Last year was a total drought year for Pawnee Rock and this year the grazing season was late getting started but good once it got going.
Bottom line despite his perceived poor performance C20'S offspring have either created or reflected his balanced dollar values at a high level relative to the rest of the breed.

 

[Okotoks]

Interesting to see the different bulls people prefer.  You know it's a quality offering when that happens.  I still prefer lot 5.  I think a bull with his performance profile has a greater chance of replicating himself than maybe some of the others. 

r.n. reed mentioned the c20s.  I noticed there's quite a bit of difference between his actual performance and the performance of his sons.  I  figured that the environment in Illinois would be much more conducive to eight.hundred.pound. weaning weights than what I saw in Pawnee Rock but maybe not?

In analyzing and interpreting the data, what should a prospective buyer expect out of lot 7? Or any of the 800+lb weaning weight bulls ? Should you expect their actual performance to be replicated or would you expect it to revert to that of their sires and mgs? Is their actual performance or their epd profiles better representations of their offspring's performance potential? Last year, lot 7's 7155 dam weaned a 4508 calf that was almost 200lbs lighter.  Does 4508 have that much less performance than his c20x son? Both their profiles and their actual performance would suggest both sire and son are very similar in terms of growth so I'm not sure how to interpret what I'm seeing.

With the new WHR program being more documentation oriented, I think it's imperative to not only know how to read the data but, more importantly, how to interpret the data as useful information.  When actual performance and epd profiles don't coincide, which do you discard as data and which do you use as useful information?

You raise some excellent points and questions XBAR and I appreciate the fact that you do not just take things at face value.I will address what I can, the rest may take a generation or two before we get the answers.Let me first say that no matter what the breeding or environment, the achievments of this calf are remarkable and more encouraging is the fact that there are other similar bred animals in the sale that are in the ball park,lot 12 and 74 for example.
In Illinois we have good grass for about 6 weeks in May and the first part of June,about one in 3 years you get a decent rain in the late summer and get some good grazing in September or early October.C20 was born May 5th so about the time he was ready to start chowing down the feed value went down and the quantity of milk production suffered as well.I dont creep so he just plain roughed it.I might ad that being a linebred calf probably repressed his performance to some degree as well.We have the heat and humidity of the deep south in the summer and the bitter cold of the far north in the winter.A mouthful of that buffalo grass in Kansas and Nebraska is worth a small square bale here. I have been to Haumonts and Marty's in the middle of July with the pastures looking like someones lawn that had been sprayed with roundup and the cattle were all sleek and in great condition.
As to the differences between last years 4508 son and the C20 son this year we can answer some questions raise some possibilities and ask more questions.There is more performance in C20 than 4508,C20 is linebred so maybe an extra shot of vigor.The cow has potentialy entered her prime.Last year was a total drought year for Pawnee Rock and this year the grazing season was late getting started but good once it got going.
Bottom line despite his perceived poor performance C20'S offspring have either created or reflected his balanced dollar values at a high level relative to the rest of the breed.

Also impressive is Lots 7 and 12 are out of 3 year old half sisters, both of which calved at 23 months or less as 2 year olds and each raised a bull that sold for use. They then both bred back to calve at 35 months and each raised way over 50% of their own weight. Lot 5's dam calved at 21 months and then bred back to calve at just under 12 months the next two years. Her first calf a heifer is already in production. Lots 5, 7 and 12 definitely are out of producing females!

 

[r.n.reed]

Great point Okotoks,Those bulls should be in high demand for the value of the cows behind them alone.Cows that produce like that are where the real money is made in the cattle business.

 

[aj]

Does Marty weigh cows every year at weaning. That takes some commitment. Is there a Shorthorn breeder in the world that does that?

 

[huntaway]

Does Marty weigh cows every year at weaning. That takes some commitment. Is there a Shorthorn breeder in the world that does that?

Have done the last 8 years, with mature weight discussed on every bull or cow on here would be surprised if more don't.
Nice line of bulls, from photos like 12

Would the ultrasound have been done some time as yearling weight and what would be considered high IMF % at those weights.