Needing some breeding advice, hereford and charolais

[Show Steaks]

i dont know much at all about either of these breeds so i'm asking you SP
I would like to breed some charolais and some hereford bulls to my angus cows.... What AI bulls do you recommend if i want to primarily breed for replacments, calves must be sound good fronted and deep bodied.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Mark H]

Show steaks,

I do not know much about your cows such as how old they are, if they are straight Angus, how big a calf they have  calves naturally in the past etc.  They rtype of bull I would use on a commercial Angus cow is different from what i would use on a purebred Charolais cow.  I am thinking of some easily obtained spread bulls from Bovine Elite that are known to come from bloodline that can sire good females and still put some guts in them.
M6 Grid Maker- For the low birth weight EPD we does put some guts and muscle into them.  Another bull to consider is EC No Doubt a Grid Maker son with similar EPDs 
SR/NC Field Rep  A good bull from Nipps.  Great EPD profile with good maternal and carcass.  I like MR perfect gentics and this bull shows why.
If you need an even easir calver try Baldrige Fastrack, Oakdale Duke, or Freddys bull Fred's Husker amoung many other worthy calving ease bulls.
if your cows can handle a big Maine bull successfully I would consider using one of the power bulls on Genex from Dory Gerrard.
For Horned Hereford Bulls to make BWF cows you can use a very easy calving bull like
AGA 20J STANMORE 21M
If you can stand to use a heavier birth weight Horned Herferd I like the calves out of:
BP Robin Hodd 86M  Lots of Muscle, performance and maternal power.

 

[Show Steaks]

my cows were able to handle clubby steers so i think i have put them through there worst days already lol..... any thoughts on charolais bull "kojack"

 

[Mark H]

I think you are talking about Baldridge Kojack 29K.  He is a son of Baldridge Fastrack that is even easier calving and maintains his growth relative to his sire. He has less maternal capability, lacks guts, and does not sire muscle. In the Charolais breed these are dedicated heifer bulls.  Neither Baldridge bull will put the rib or muscle that the other bulls I told you about not to mention muscle or growth.  The bulls I specifically named will be better at everything you want but they are not heifer bulls.
If your cows can tolerate the larger birth weight then I would consider SVY Pligrim 655S or SVY Freedom.  Both bulls are owned by Dory Gerrard and Voegeli Farms (http://www.voegelibros.com/).  The owner of Voegeli Farms the Serhienko's are experienced showmen and know what works.  They also have a few Angus around so they could give you some input into which of their bulls would work on Angus cows.

 

[Show Steaks]

Thanks for the help mark!

 

[chambero]

What do you want these replacements to be able to do?

If you are wanting them to raise steers, in my opinion you definitely want a purebred Charolais bull, but probably a relatively framed and smooth made kind of bull.  I don't pretend to know all of the different Charolais bloodlines, but the HooDoo related bulls work in this scenario (i.e. George) as do some of the bulls that Schroeders and Leddy have down here in Texas.

I'd strongly suggest you give Mr. Fred a call and talk to him - he does this exact thing and has a lot of first hand experience.

Other than just getting good cows, the Hereford x Angus cross isn't going to help you if you are trying to raise consistently Hereford-marked steers.

 

[Mark H]

Hoo Doo cattle have made a big splash in a small pond namely the clubby business.  Both Gerrard and Serhienko's have shown national champions and have successful commercial bull sales.  The Hoo Doo cattle outside Texas have not established themselves in the purebred show ring or in the seed stock world.  The bulls I mentioned have excellent growth, calving ease that will work on grade cows, maternal power, and enough muscle and rib t the o improve all calves. Why use a bull by any objective measure that can't compete except that he is owned by some steer jock?
Lastly the beef business does not revolve around the club calf hobby.  The Hereford Angus cross is a classic cross to produce productive cows.  Perhaps he does not want to limit his herd to producing show steers.  People have to make cattle productive in order to make money in the beef business.  That is where the BWF cow and the Charolais cross comes in.

 

[chambero]

Didn't realize suggestions were limited to those approved by you.  My bad.

 

[Mark H]

I am not knocking your suggestions and I don't mind people disagreeing with me.  It is that way I learn.  However my entire point is their is a world outside the small world of breeding club calves. The vast majority of breeding bulls are not involved in the club calf business or owned by those showing steers.  By confining the bulls you are willing to use to those owned or recommended by a small clique of breeders you limit your chances for long term success.  Since the population of purebred bulls is so much greater that clubby bulls the chances of bulls turning acceptable cattle for many different uses (even for show steers) is much higher in the purebred population.  Given this it is wise to learn about different breeds from the breeders that know these cattle.

 

[chambero]

Mark:

I don't follow Charolais purebred cattle closely at all.  So I don't have a clue about the bulls you mentioned.  But in general, the type of Charolais cattle that win the open and junior shows I've seen in Texas don't raise steers.  A high school classmate of mine and friend has won about every junior show in Texas and the US they've gone to the past few years.  Their females don't raise show steers that compete down here.  With a user name "Show Steaks" making posts on a website called "Steer Planet" and his mention he uses clubby bulls,  I assumed he wants to raise show steers.  But I did preface my post by asking the question about what he wanted the females from this cross to raise. 

A few things about where my suggestions come from.  We make our money in the commercial world on our cowherd - not show cattle.  It's not by raising Charolais cross cattle.  Feedlot buyers don't want them and you sure can't sell smokey replacments to commercial buyers.  We ran Herefords bulls on Angus cows for 30+ years when we switched over to black bulls.  In process our weaning weights are a good 100 pounds heavier than they were 15 years ago.  Personally I think Charolais cross females can make some very good cows.  We have exactly two in our herd of a couple hundred mommas.  Steer  calves from one of them have been the highest money making calves in our herd - both for us and our feedlot buyer - the past two years running. 

I'd hardly call the HooDoo Ranch a club calf outfit.  I believe they are run by some very good cowmen who never cared about the showring but raised practical Charolais cattle in pretty tough country.  HooDoo females started finding their way down to Texas and gained popularity because Kris Black found them.  He sells a bunch of steers, but he's hardly a "steer jock".  The reason those females work is because they do have a lot of real world functionality to them.  The market of Charolais is for their bulls on a commercial scale.  Charolais females are practically useless on a large scale to anyone but a purebred breeder.  People don't want them.  You would find very few old men at the coffee shop or sale barn that would be interested in your half-blood Charolais crosses out of high performance bulls.

What Texas and Oklahoma breeders have gotten very good at (moreso than breeders in any other part of the country) is raising Charolais cross show steers.  If that's what Show Steaks is interested in, the bulls and bloowdlies used by the people I mentioned do it better than anything else.  And for what its worth, Schroeders and Dan Leddy aren't using exclusively HooDoo bloodlines.  They have other bulls that semen can be obtained on - anyone interested would just need to give them a call.  But the prototype is a medium framed, smooth muscled Charolais bull.

 

[Freddy]

i'M kinda getting old an memory sometimes isn't the greatest  so correct me any time I'm wrong , the HOODOO cattle did make a splash in the club calf business, but that was just mostly the part of the HOODOO herd that fit there through the instruction of Kris Black . But the HOODOO herd was a very sucessfull commercial an purebred herd before this .  Also hasn't the DISMUKES herd made some noise in the purebred shows with the HOODOO influence , like SLASHER an some others ....The main reason the HOODOO cattle didn't have great EPD'S was because they were a closed herd to other blood lines an other breeders for quite a few years ....The hoodoo CATTLE are very functional cattle ,its just not real easy to acquire the different bloodlines they used ....These cattle originated from the hills of Wyoming around the Cody area an close to Yellowstone Park ...

 

[shortyjock89]

I am not knocking your suggestions and I don't mind people disagreeing with me.  It is that way I learn.  However my entire point is their is a world outside the small world of breeding club calves. The vast majority of breeding bulls are not involved in the club calf business or owned by those showing steers.  By confining the bulls you are willing to use to those owned or recommended by a small clique of breeders you limit your chances for long term success.  Since the population of purebred bulls is so much greater that clubby bulls the chances of bulls turning acceptable cattle for many different uses (even for show steers) is much higher in the purebred population.  Given this it is wise to learn about different breeds from the breeders that know these cattle.

Glad that you know a lot about the cattle industry, and have lots of insight outside of the clubby world, but this is a SHOW cattle forum. Unless specifically stated, most folks are going to assume that people asking for breeding help are wanting to raise show cattle.

 

[cwbyup62]

take a look at this link and see if he would be anything you would be interested in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akQLl70rVQw

 

[Mark H]

Cwbyup62,

Do you have any pictures of the cow he is out of and perhaps some calves?  What was his cows production records like? I like him as an moderate all around type bull.  He would do well on both commercial and purebred cows.

 

[cwbyup62]

I really have no idea, I pictured and videoed him at the stud last week.  I have seen his calves at Troy Thomas's the last two years and loved them, they are moderate with a lot of rib and plenty of muscle, really good cattle.  This bull looked exceptional to me when I was there.  We have a couple of more pictures of the bull, front three quarter and rear three quarter that I will try to get up, but we were done with all of his pictures and his video in fifteen minutes, the bull just never looks bad.  Troy Thomas could give you as much information on him as anyone could.

Hope you liked the video, we try to show off all angles of each bull so it is a fair evaluation.

 

[Mark H]

Freddy,

I don't select bulls purely on EPDs, things like soundness, performance levels relative to his herd mates, and environment the animal was raised in counts.  I have used French bulls that has no EPDs and purebred bulls that had low EPDs due to the culling strategy being used.  Both bulls went on to improve their EPDs and produced bulls that gradually got very good EPDs.  The problem with the argument that isolated herds have poor EPDs is that for this to be true the herd must be perfectly isolated from being used in herd where EPD data is collected.  Enough Hoo Doo bulls have been used in other herds to statistically create parental EPDs at least.  The same situation exists for the Eaton's herd yet their EPDs are not low.  Why is this the case?  I can give plenty of problems with the use of EPDs from a statistical point of view but I don't want to write a book here.
Out in California the biggest breeder is Broken Box Ranch followed by Gutenburger.  Dismukes is largely a club calf supplier with Charolais bulls like Sparrows Madrid that has a +7.8 birth weight EPD for example.  California has more than its fair share of 900 pound range cows.  They need a bull like your bull for example-Fred's Husker and they needed him yesterday.  Your statements on the requirements for a range cow in your past post fits California to a 'T'.  

 

[Mark H]

Chambero,

In the area I come from a commercial cow herd with out a Charolais bull is like a dog with out a bone. Feeders love Char cross calves besides the increased weaning weight they do better ikn the feedlot growing quicker and using less feed to do it.  If you are feeding heifers the difference is even greater with Char cross heifers feeding like Britsh breed steers.  Don't believe me?  Call Lee Eaton and ask him he owns at least a share in few different feedlots and sells on the grid and by sealed bid all the time.  He can even help you market your calves-this is a big selling point for his bulls: http://www.eatoncharolais.com/carcass_data.  Do you retain ownership in your calves through to slaughter?  If so how do they compare to Lee Eaton's?
The Char cross cow came about when bull customers told us that Char cross replacements we doing well in raising calves and staying in the herd.  We were skeptical about this until we saw for ourselves.  In the United States Maternal genetics dominates the Charolais breed.  If you use good bulls from LT, WCR, LHD and many others you will get maternal performance second to none.  In fact I can show you cows that are char cross that you likely would think aren't due to the fsct they are red factor.  Char cross genetics is not always easily identified.
One question for you:  Do you believe that breeding for winning steer shows is incompatible with that for commercial cattle?  If so should this be the case?

 

[gilbert07]

We saw some calves out of him and liked them very much..we are using him on our three trees wind and budsmydad cows this spring..have had many champions at big shows and seems to be getting more popular

 

[chambero]

Mark - what part of the country are you from?

I had to have it proved to me, but there really is a bias against Charloais cross cattle with every feedlot buyer that has ever come thru our area the last ten years.  Wish it wasn't because I would like to breed more that way.

I don't believe trying to raise show steers is incompatible with also selling commecial cattle.  But not in the way I think you are getting at.  Calves out of the club calf bloodlines do just fine performance wise as long as they aren't out of cows that arent too tricked up the same way. 

Unfortunately, you can't get competetive show steers at the level we have in Texas/Oklahoma out of large framed exotics with the great EPD numbers.  Again, wish you could, but you can't.  I don't make the "rules", but that's the way it is. 

 

[Silver]

There is a nice new herford bull that genex has by the name of stocker. Might want to take a look at him.