new breed

[aj]

I was thinking about starting a discussion board on starting a new breed......kind of a intellectual arguement if nothing else. It probably won't fly but maybe it could be discussed on here. The Black Herford Assc. was formed in 1994. They have a web site. A president,vice president,secretary and treasure. It looked like to me there were 44 breeders currently. What are the upsides and downsides to staring a breed? Is a breed association a non profit,corperation or what. I guess this deal could pertain to hogs sheep or whatever also. It almost seems like we have more breeds now than is needed. What are some other fledgling breeds? Irish Black?

 

[Gargan]

My dad has what I call a median horn cow. She is out of a reg shorthorn bull and a pb longhorn cow. New breed? Lol

 

[knabe]

the real definition of a breed  is taking a single individual, like justin morgan, earl marshall, anxiety 4th, steel dust, using them for an "ideal" phenotype and enforcing that till numbers suffer, then, relax standards to finance breed personnel and field reps, marketing, etc.  there really is no such thing as a breed, ie like there are species which are typically from founder effects as well, similar to the original "individual".  we no longer have geography to keep breeds in there original area they were adapted to and the concept of a breed is merely a marketing concept.

 

[librarian]

I think it went something like geography separated populations into land races. Then, as Knabe says, an individual would get interested in fixing certain characters of that local variety into an ideal, in their mind, type that could be replicated.
Other examples are as with the Speckled Park, where someone starts with an individual type rather than a population and sets out to make replicas.  Originally, the Speckled Park endeavor seemed like an attempt to develop a land race that would thrive economically and ecologically and aesthetically in a certain environment.  The breed label is a promotion that usually undoes the intent of the visionary.
I am a proponent of the concept of locally adapted land races of livestock--sort of a "beyond breed" philosophy.  Unfortunately, or perhaps not, nature selects on a much deeper level and in a different scale of time than what we can apprehend.

 

[aj]

I was on a website that list's associations and numbers registered. Numbers wise....the Maine Anjou kin of a joke....12,000 registrations. The Herfords 110,00 head. Shorthorn 22,000 head.Ankina less than 1,000. Brawnvieh 6,200. Chi Angus is part of the Chi Assc. South Devon has a magazine called bull dust. Red Brangus 2,900 head and Brangus 26,000 head. This kinda surprised me cause I would thing Brangus were made to tolerate heat.....how is black better than red on this deal.12,000 Sante Gertrudis. Only 1,000 or less zebu.

 

[knabe]

how many red angus x shorthorn THC registrations are there?

 

[knabe]

how is black better than red on this deal

maybe you should switch from red angus to black angus on your shorthorns.

 

[aj]

I doubted this discussion would take off. We'll probably try and set up a discussion page on face book.

 

[aj]

I actually think say a Red Angus-Shorthorn composite breed might fly. Blacks would be accepted as far as I am concerned. It would be a f1 program. It would be more the Sante Gertrudis breed. The cattle couldn't be fully in untill 3 generations.

 

[knabe]

The thrust of your point is that we have too many breeds and the thread will probably not take off.

You dont like the cattle in the shorthorn breed or the clubby circles.

Im not sure what your point or solutions are.

Arent f1's the best cattle to feed with maximum hybrid vigor? 

 

[librarian]

I thought it took 15 generations to really set a genetic race.  That seems like 30 years. Although with ET and all that you could get quite a population going even in 3 generations.  What are you thinking of selecting for?
And right, all the vigor of the F1 will wear off, but you could get an "improved" type.  Historically, improvement seems to have been pretty subjective though.
But I agree about going with Red Angus instead of Black.  They have retained more Shorthorn genetics from the original Shorthorn infusion to "improve" Angus.
So, I can see that using a line bred Red Shorthorn variety on a line bred Red Angus variety, selecting for whatever traits, would cook down to something repeatable and useful. I say red for adaptive reasons.

 

[RyanChandler]

I thought it took 15 generations to really set a genetic race.  That seems like 30 years. Although with ET and all that you could get quite a population going even in 3 generations.  What are you thinking of selecting for?
And right, all the vigor of the F1 will wear off, but you could get an "improved" type.  Historically, improvement seems to have been pretty subjective though.
But I agree about going with Red Angus instead of Black.  They have retained more Shorthorn genetics from the original Shorthorn infusion to "improve" Angus.
So, I can see that using a line bred Red Shorthorn variety on a line bred Red Angus variety, selecting for whatever traits, would cook down to something repeatable and useful. I say red for adaptive reasons.

I think the feat is so much more difficult than one would think... Read about the evolution of the Gert breed.  Their breeding program started w/ imported Brahman bulls and over 2000 shorthorn cows! Skipping all the details, to line breed crossbreds (to eventually create composites) is going to take YEARS and a considerable number of animals to start with.  Not only do you have to breed up enough first cross Gerts (1/2 x 3/4 =3/8) you then have to breed those first generation Gerts to each other (FOR GENERATIONS) to STABILIZE the FIXED  3/8 brahman 5/8 Shorthorn percentages. 

 

[librarian]

I thought SG had Devon in there as well.
I sort of think breed is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[knabe]

(FOR GENERATIONS)

and people will always keep the "best" and wonder why they can't fix that phenotype.

serendipity plays a huge role.

 

[Gargan]

Very true knabe. I would take lots of discipline and patients to be persistent enough to keep the plan intact if the desired phenotype is present in say  the 3rd generation.

 

[knabe]

would clones to clones be faster?

 

[RyanChandler]

(FOR GENERATIONS)

and people will always keep the "best" and wonder why they can't fix that phenotype.

serendipity plays a huge role.

Yup, Outliers never replicate themselves, yet are always the first to be used.  Serendipity plays a huge role, I agree.

 

[aj]

I would agree with 3-8ths 5-8ths deal gets complicated. The halfblood level would be the easiest. Start with 5 breeders.......roughly 200 cows. Trademark the breed. Paper the cattle. The initial herd would be closed. The additions would be made by crossing a red paper shorthorn and a 1A Red Angus. You have differentiated your product for marketing purposes. You have set your self up to be a foundation herd. And you have allowed additional growth of the breed numbers and genetics.

 

[RyanChandler]

As long as every animal every used in the breeding program was 50/50- I see no reason why it couldn't work.    The key is living long enough to reach those stabilized F7s.  Prior to a later cross such as the F5,6,7 etc,  I think the individuals w/ keep reverting back and forth between the foundation breeds and consistency won't be on your side. 

 

[aj]

Could any lawyer draw up bylaws? It would be a non profit? You would need a house lawyer......liabilty insurance of some kind. Is there a organization that accepts or approves of new breeds......in order to be recognized. The pres,vive pres,sec,treaury would work for free intially?200 registrations a year at say 10 $ would be a 2,000 $ income. How would you set up epds on a tiny breed.....or would you?