Opinions on a Mating

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farmboy

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south webster ohio
I have a dr. who x heatseeker heifer, really fancy and deep, was wondering if i could use witch doctor on her and A. get one out of her under 90lbs since WD is calving ease figured id be safe but with the DW and HS in there, im not sure, she was an easy calf herself. B. Being out of Dr who, would there be any inbreeding coefficiancy (sp)?? or affects of that nature


-ZACH
 

kane1598

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Actually Doctor Who's dam is a witchdoctor....maybe make another choice, but it could turn out really nice as a linebred WD :p
 

shortyjock89

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Ahhh I really wouldn't worry about it. But, if you don't want to breed that close (which I wouldn't call that close at all), I would say Northern Improvement.
 

knabe

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one way to think about inbreeding is that a calf is 50% from mom and 50% from dad.

that's balanced inbreeding.

take a 3 generation pedigree like on the maine web site.

http://maine-anjou.weaveyourwebdreams.com/breed/pedigree.asp?RegNo=317701

if you have a calf out of doctor who, witch doctor is now in the 3rd position and represents 1/8 or 12.5%

ususally you don't do this type of cross, ie zig zag, but 12.5 +50%=62.5 and this wouldn't be "classical" line breeding.  i guess i would almost think of it as a skipped generation test cross or back cross.

half sib mating would still be only 50:50 (at the grand sire level, and only 25% at the great level),  so the usually viewed "bad" half sib mating is actually LESS than breeding a sire to his daughter's great grandfather.

translation, witch doctor would be the sire and great grand sire of the offspring.

personally, i would use a witch doctor son if you wanted witch doctor.

i'm sure lot's of people are experiencing your dilemna, or will be soon with heat waves and irish whiskey's.  that's why picking out the PHA free irish whiskey son's out of good cows is so fun.  don't use them, use the cow.  what's really disappointing is the PHA frees out of the carriers are seen as inferior when in fact they may not be in the right context.  they in fact be the best thing to stack and then cross with something else stacked.  half sib matings and less are the easiest way to avoid your situation.
 

afhm

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Consider Bushy Park's Ali son Smokin Joe or one of their other low bw sires.  With the monetary  incentives they are offering for champions sired by their bulls its hard not to use them.
 

OH Breeder

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Feb 14, 2007
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Ada, Ohio
Northern Improvement
http://www.cattlevisions.com/Angus/Northern%20Improvement.php

SS Traveler 6807 T 510 You will like the grow you get out of them. Small but grow like weeds.One of the best females I had was a power plant x Traveler
http://www.cattlevisions.com/Angus/SS%20Traveler%206807%20of%20T510.php

OCC Legend Will make great females for the future. Respectable steers
http://www.cattlevisions.com/Angus/OCC%20Legend%20616L.php
 

CAB

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Corning,Iowa
Wouldn't do it. There's a post  on another board about a 140 lb WD out of a HW cow. A friend bred a heifer to SunSeeker, 2 days ago, bad news. Wait at least a year. Breed true, predictable calving ease. Patience Zach, you want that heifer to be a cow, right?
 

Dero

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Smithfield,KY
I can let you konw if the Dr Who , Whichdoctor thing works next week. My brother bred a WhitchdoctorxSimi to Dr. Who
 

Chap

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doubling up on witchdoctor genetics would scare me.  I know some that have had great luck with him on heifers, but he has been all over the place for us.  70-120 lbs. might also have "bite" issues and leg swingers if  you get them too close. i think it is pretty interesting that you don't see more than 1 shot of Power Plant or Witchdoctor in an of the really powerful pedigrees.  Unlike Streamline, Cunia, Covino and even Draft Pick who by rights should have decreased the odds of that happenign with his PHA status.  any thots on this. maybe i am not doing enuf digging
 

knabe

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power plant seems to be a twin creek etulason (streamliner?) x cunia covino III on the bottom.

perhaps what happened is that he's too streamlined, carries monkey mouth and just never added depth in a stacked pedigree?, got fingered for monkey mouth instead of the immortal cunia scaring people into doubling up on him, but people still kept doubling up on cunia.  it sure would have been nice if somebody linebred cunia on some fullbloods with half sib matings or something similar and got the monkey mouth out.

i'm sure somebody will fix this.

sure would like a monkey mouth test to test all those pha free irish whiskey's.  it better not be linked to soft cattle in a PHAF state from carrier lines.  that would be disappointing.
 

red

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All i know is the lettle red steer has pretty much grown out of his monkey mouth. Is that typical? sometimes I thinkwe jumped the gun on steering him.  :(

Red
 

kanshow

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Red, It would be interesting to see what that calf looks like at 6 mo.,  8 mo. a year.    I'm not sure about cattle & how the jaws change as they grow but I know dogs ...    You can have a puppy with a perfect bite between 8 & 12 weeks and then have it go way off either way - under or over - and might stay that way for a few months but then it will come back to what it was - because the jaw & other bones grow at different rates.
 

knabe

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red, feel inside his mouth and see if his teeth line up with the gums like they are supposed too.  interesting, the tissue from the part where there is no bone may be extending.  another example of least penetrance?  a lot of developmental genes operate in what are called cascades where they become more and more dilute, as say one goes down the spine or skull.  interestingly, this is now being studied heavily, and just the other day, material scientists are extemely intrigued by the beaks of squids as they have a cascade of density, which allows them to maneuver their beek without getting sore, as the base of the beak is soft.  this has massive implications for amputees and many other applications where one would like to have a gradient between soft and hard, or less dense to more dense molecules.  it's really interesting these types of genes appear to be everywhere and slight tweaks of their expression can cause problems.  once again, methylation can have an impact on this, ie storage of environmental constraints passed on by the mother.
 

red

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no, I know what you mean. It's problaby the best we steered him. It's just w/ a 75# BW you wonder.

Red
 
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