protein and its effect on birth weight....myth?

[braunvieh]

A while back someone told us not to feed protein in the late 3rd trimester as it can make the calves grow big. We had some monster Charolais calves born that year and did feed wet distillers in our silage/hay mix for the cows. So the next year we cut the protein way back and the births were back to normal and mostly unassisted. Lately someone told me to not feed protein is a bad thing and has NO bearing on BW. I feel that you cannot cut protein out, especially in the timeframe we are talking about of Jan/Feb/Mar. However, I think having protein tubs out or something of that nature would be a big no no. This fall had a cow that we spoiled with grain for about 6 weeks before calving (mostly cause she too so long to calve and we thought it would be sooner) and the other 2 that calved did not get the grain. All 3 mated to the same  bull. The 2 without grain had calves in the 70 and 80 pound range. The cow on grain had a 100+ pound calf and it was dead. I am wondering if the feed/protein caused the size to be so large.

 

[Freddy]

I definitely believe protein will cause big calves especially if they are getting more than thet need an Ihave watched this for years .  The unversities will say your crazy but they don't believe in cheletes or replacements for cow's colostrum.

 

[Cattledog]

I think the energy of concentrates has more to do with BW than protein.  I hold back on the grain in the last trimester of gestation and find that this keeps my BW down.  However, I always have a protein source for them.  There are too many facets of prodution that depend on protein.  

I did read an interesting study from Oklahoma State.  It stated that cows that have energy reduced in the last trimester of gestation have more dystocia than those that are fed.  There were a bunch of trials and it made sense when I read it.  I will try to find it again and post the link.  With that said I still hold the grain back from them.  I find it easier to sell 75-80 pound bulls than 100 pounders.  When I do sell a bull I try to figure out what there feeding practices are and maybe give some suggestions for managing BW.  

 

[Cowboy]

VERY good topic.

Ihave always had this policy -- first off -- I get my cows where I want them body score wise by late 2nd trimester and I keep them there. I never have to worry about thin cows or over fat cows by doing this.

I have always seen this dillema -- protien versus energy intake. Protien is a very large mandate in cow production, "Excess" is not. Higher than needed protien along with almost ANY extra enery is a disaster waiting to happen in alot of herds. WE can actually love our cows to death in this regard.

I keep either very good Alfalfa in front of my cows -- hand fed on my small herd 2x per day -- or -- I feed a lower quality feed source - such as Cane or as in this year -- very good Grass hay, and keep a tub of Crystalix HE029% out for them all the time. As long as the energy is not excessive, and you do not PUSH the protien in them the last 45 days, we have very little problems. It took me a few years WAY back there to figure this out -- silage is excellent feed, I have fed it too -- but as well it has corn and energy they really don't need. Limit - limit - limit the good stuff, but keep them full and happy on lower calorie intake is my plan here.

Distiller is very high in energy -- high in sulfor as well -- so you have extra issues there if not watched closely. Many herds close by here are seeing increased breeding problems since they went on Distillers , food for thought!

Every herd is different of course, but this scenario has worked well for me for many years. I watch the energy late, get them in great shape by the end of 6th month -- and off we go!

Any way -- just my small corner of the world.

We also only feed Vita-Ferm mineral with Ama-ferm -- this in itself will make a huge difference over all, wonderfull products.

Terry

 

[inthebarnagain]

I had always heard energy also, which makes sense because diabetic women will have large babies because of the large amounts of sugar in the bloodstream. 

 

[red]

I've certainly seen the results of show heifers that were kept fat for shows having big calves.
We just feed our cows hay (it's good quality) & mineral & we've gotten calves over 120#'s. Matter of fact I get excited when I have a calf under 100 #'s. In these cases I blame genetics rather than feed.

Red

 

[simtal]

IL state University just did some work with comparing distillers with birth weight.  I'm pretty sure birth weights or dyscotia didn't change.

Also,


How many people have issues with cows consuming too much cake or tub protein?

 

[red]

IL state University just did some work with comparing distillers with birth weight.  I'm pretty sure birth weights or dyscotia didn't change.

Also,


How many people have issues with cows consuming too much cake or tub protein?

I know that MLK32 called her tubs crack for cows!
Usually the cows will start on the tubs really hard & then should tapper off. I always recommended putting them away from the water supply so that they don't congregate there. Also w/ tubs I still recommended salt to be provided.

Red

 

[justintime]

I find that exercise for the pregnant female can help to keep BWs in line regardless of what they are fed. We make our cows walk as much as possible, and we have few calving issues, other than an occasional malpresentation or a heifer who wants to take several hours to calve.

 

[kanshow]

Isn't there also a correlation between cold weather & big calves?

 

[jrg]

Isn't there also a correlation between cold weather & big calves?

Heard the same thing.  Which makes sense, they take more energy to maintain body temp and feed a calf, so the calf is getting more groceries as well.

 

[LN]

Isn't there also a correlation between cold weather & big calves?

I think I read something about that too but it was more along the lines of hot weather=shorter gestation and cold weather=longer gestation, which would cause heavier BW.

 

[Endless Meadows]

Managing the birthweight issue has been a long standing topic with many of addages or tricks that seem to work for some and not for others and with different results from year to year.  There have been a number of university studies that looked at protein supplementation and it's relation to calves BW.  Those results have been very mixed over the years.  Identical studies have produced opposite results.  Some studies have shown the expected results the first year and just the opposite the second.  Nutrition, Exercise, Age, Weather, Diet, Genetics, Gestation length.....are all tied together to determine BW.  It's hard to only focus on nutrition to control BW.  In regards to the distiller's grains and problems breeding back the following year, that could be very possible and explained very easily.  Most DG's are high in sulfur at around 1%.  Sulfur, when provided above the dietary requirement will negatively impact copper absorption.  The reproductive problems could easily be a result of a copper deficiency caused by excess sulfur in the diet. 

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Isn't there also a correlation between cold weather & big calves?

I think I read something about that too but it was more along the lines of hot weather=shorter gestation and cold weather=longer gestation, which would cause heavier BW.

I believe that this is a survival tool that animals use.  In a colder environment the animal will have a larger BW because the animal should be larger to help keep it warm when it is born.  Also in a warmer climate the animals will be smaller because the larger size is not needed to combat the cold.  I don't know if this is because of the gestation length or if the animal is providing more or less nutrients to the developing calf.  That being said I have only really heard the difference in the climates Canada vs. South Texas not if the temp is colder or warmer at that particular time. 

 

[austin]

That's why Americans are so much bigger than everyone else. Our foods have a lot of protein, and we eat a lot food.  (lol)

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

That's why Americans are so much bigger than everyone else. Our foods have a lot of protein, and we eat a lot food.  (lol)

I don't know about you but I am not fat because of my high protein intake... its the fiber. 

 

[austin]

That's why Americans are so much bigger than everyone else. Our foods have a lot of protein, and we eat a lot food.  (lol)

I don't know about you but I am not fat because of my high protein intake... its the fiber. 

(lol) Well, I meant bigger in the sense of taller and bigger-boned; not fatter. 

 

[aj]

Oxygen is a very important chemical in the equation of life. Without oxygen there is no water and without water there is no beer!

 

[C-CROSS]

We have fed wet distillers to our bred cows and heifers the last 4-5 years and have seen no ncrease in BW  and our Pregnancy rate is less than 4% on 240 head.  The fat content can work in benefit, yes you do have to watch sulfur level.  Up here the plants we buy from are lower and we have it tested.

 

[Endless Meadows]

I had always heard energy also, which makes sense because diabetic women will have large babies because of the large amounts of sugar in the bloodstream. 

The larger babies from diabetic women is a direct result of the insulin shots they take.  Insulin is a growth hormone and the shots circulate it through the bloodstream.