Stealing Justintime's idea....Is there such a thing...

[Show Heifer]

I thought Justintime had a very good point in the thread about Power 2 bull.  She ask if there was such a thing as too thick, too big boned, etc.... and I thought it deserved a thread of its own.

Yes, JIT, I do think that there is such a thing as too much of anything really. Too thick, Too deep, Too big boned, Too straight, etc, etc. You can, in my opinion, have too much of a good thing.

But, in the past, and to some extent now, the steer show is a freak show. Who can get one thicker, deeper, bigger boned etc. Heard many times in the barn and on this site that "the good ones come hard".....  really?  So in order to have that "champion critter" it has to come out the side or kill its momma? So now, instead of breeding for good sound moderate cattle, the clubbies are breeding for freaks.  Few years ago, you had to look at the back of a calf to see if it was a steer or heifer (and then sometimes you couldn't tell, they were so underdeveloped). That is changing a bit with judges picking more feminine heifers. 

If you add bone, and too some extent depth, you are indeed taking away grade and yield. (Unless you eat bone and guts - and hair) Is that a GOOD thing?  I do not think so. After all, some and some on this site has argued that judges indeed pick a market steer, not a "show steer". I do not know how they do it without touching for finish or taking in consideration the huge amount of waste in some of these "purple banner" steers, but argue away..

I say it is a freak, stuff and fluff show and has very little to do with "market" animals because show calves do in fact, have too much bone, too much depth (and kill too many momma cows!)

Opinions anyone??  ;D


By the way, I think Hook has found a very nice bull..... I wish him well.

 

[TJ]

I thought Justintime had a very good point in the thread about Power 2 bull.  She ask if there was such a thing as too thick, too big boned, etc.... and I thought it deserved a thread of its own.

Yes, JIT, I do think that there is such a thing as too much of anything really. Too thick, Too deep, Too big boned, Too straight, etc, etc. You can, in my opinion, have too much of a good thing.

But, in the past, and to some extent now, the steer show is a freak show. Who can get one thicker, deeper, bigger boned etc. Heard many times in the barn and on this site that "the good ones come hard".....  really?  So in order to have that "champion critter" it has to come out the side or kill its momma? So now, instead of breeding for good sound moderate cattle, the clubbies are breeding for freaks.  Few years ago, you had to look at the back of a calf to see if it was a steer or heifer (and then sometimes you couldn't tell, they were so underdeveloped). That is changing a bit with judges picking more feminine heifers. 

If you add bone, and too some extent depth, you are indeed taking away grade and yield. (Unless you eat bone and guts - and hair) Is that a GOOD thing?  I do not think so. After all, some and some on this site has argued that judges indeed pick a market steer, not a "show steer". I do not know how they do it without touching for finish or taking in consideration the huge amount of waste in some of these "purple banner" steers, but argue away..

I say it is a freak, stuff and fluff show and has very little to do with "market" animals because show calves do in fact, have too much bone, too much depth (and kill too many momma cows!)

Opinions anyone??   ;D


By the way, I think Hook has found a very nice bull..... I wish him well.

Is it OK if I agree with everything that you said except for the part about "too much depth"?   

 

[ROMAX]

I think you have to remember these are "showcattle" they are not feedlot cattle,if that was the case you could just go out put a halter on your quietest fat steer and drag him to the show.Just like any beauty pageant they don't crawl out of bed an go compete,i will agree there is alot of extremes out there but thats the name of the game.

 

[jbw]

The judge at the IA Beef Expo did not use the thickest, biggest boned freaks in the show, he tried to go with the smoothest most complete, balanced calves. Everyone has there own opinion, but I will give up bone and a freaky big butt to have a SOUND soft one that maintains pretty.

 

[LT]

There has to be a happy medium.  Extreme either way is giving it all up.  The show cattle tend to go up and down in cycles.  I think there are several reputable breeders, several of which are on this site, that will continue to stand firm on doing what is best for the industry, the consumer and still give the exhibitor what they need to compete in the showring with a correct, moderate well bred and well handled animal.  We can do it all and balance it well.  We owe it to all of the youth in this country to be the example of reputable breeders regardless of the bumps we may take along the way in the ring.  I know champions sell, but we also have to sleep at night and know what we are doing is best for our cows, our industry and the future breeders throughout this country by sticking to what  we believe in for each of our programs.  That is a choice we each have to make and then stick to it.   Sorry, I  will step off my soapbox now!  

 

[Show Steaks]

I believe there is such a thing as too thick.
But too much depth i disagree with.
I would love to own a pasture full of belly draggin females
Just my opinion

 

[VJ]

Show steers are to feedlot cattle as Nascar stock cars are to my family car.

 

[MYT Farms]

I believe there is such a thing as too thick.
But too much depth i disagree with.
I would love to own a pasture full of belly draggin females
Just my opinion

Now there's a statement I agree wholeheartedly with.   TJ, I agree with you too.

 

[midway6376]

I always wondered why these show steers have to have so much bone when nobody eats bone. A steer is supposed to be something you eat. And whats the point of breeding a cow to a bull when there is a high chance of the calf killing the cow? To me its not worth it.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I thought Justintime had a very good point in the thread about Power 2 bull.  She ask if there was such a thing as too thick, too big boned, etc.... and I thought it deserved a thread of its own.

Yes, JIT, I do think that there is such a thing as too much of anything really. Too thick, Too deep, Too big boned, Too straight, etc, etc. You can, in my opinion, have too much of a good thing.

But, in the past, and to some extent now, the steer show is a freak show. Who can get one thicker, deeper, bigger boned etc. Heard many times in the barn and on this site that "the good ones come hard".....  really?  So in order to have that "champion critter" it has to come out the side or kill its momma? So now, instead of breeding for good sound moderate cattle, the clubbies are breeding for freaks.  Few years ago, you had to look at the back of a calf to see if it was a steer or heifer (and then sometimes you couldn't tell, they were so underdeveloped). That is changing a bit with judges picking more feminine heifers. 

If you add bone, and too some extent depth, you are indeed taking away grade and yield. (Unless you eat bone and guts - and hair) Is that a GOOD thing?  I do not think so. After all, some and some on this site has argued that judges indeed pick a market steer, not a "show steer". I do not know how they do it without touching for finish or taking in consideration the huge amount of waste in some of these "purple banner" steers, but argue away..

I say it is a freak, stuff and fluff show and has very little to do with "market" animals because show calves do in fact, have too much bone, too much depth (and kill too many momma cows!)

Opinions anyone??   ;D


By the way, I think Hook has found a very nice bull..... I wish him well.

Is it OK if I agree with everything that you said except for the part about "too much depth"?     

I'll second that...well maybe third or fourth that.    For me if the animal isn't getting soars on its belly it could be a bit deeper.  Ok, maybe not that much but close.  I can find a whole lot of bulls to make them shallower.   

 

[MYT Farms]

I'll second that...well maybe third or fourth that.     For me if the animal isn't getting soars on its belly it could be a bit deeper.  Ok, maybe not that much but close.  I can find a whole lot of bulls to make them shallower.   

BINGO

 

[shortdawg]

I really respect a judge that is not afraid to pick a smoother, sounder calf that can handle his finished weight without being a cripple over one that is just muscle without the  structure to handle it.

 

[justintime]

So... I will say that I like cattle with lots of depth but to me, I agree with what John Sullivan wrote in his promotional flyer. That being that we do not have to go to extremes to achieve easy fleshing, and easy doing cattle. In my opinion, middle of the road is where it is at. Can someone explain what extreme depth, so that their bellies are almost dragging is good for... or what it accomplishes? Do you want cows with these traits in an attempt to have easy keeping cows, or is there another reason for this? Does this extreme depth have any economical value when these critters end up hanging on the rail( They all end up there some day) When we were feeding cattle and selling all the cattle on the rail, I got to know a couple of large packing plant managers. They were always telling me that there was too much trim on the lower third of many British breed cattle. I think we have done a pretty good job of eliminating this problem. If you draw an angular line from the hock to the top of the shoulder, everything above that line represents 80 % of the value of that animal. Only 20% is below that line. I will agree that depth of rib is important in easy doing cattle, but I am also thinking that rib shape is as important and maybe more. Is this just a show ring thing or is there any real reason for this extreme depth that we are discussing here.

The first thing I think of when I visualize this image is the cows I remember as a kid. If their belly is close to the ground, so is their udder. There are few things I hate more than a cow with teats so low that her calf can't find them... in fact I will not tolerate them.I have an 8 year old Angus cow that I use for a recip that is much like I think some of you are describing. She is a tank and is one great recip moma. She has now got her 5th ET calf. Her udder has always been low to the ground,as is the rest of her body. I have said each year if she does not keep the embryo pregnancy she is getting the first ride to town, simply because one of these years, her calf is going to need my help to start nursing. While I like the cow, I can hardly imagine having an entire herd like this.

I will always remember a visit to a herd in Illinois a few years ago. I delivered a bull to a breeder who had a set of small to moderate framed cows.They were extremely deep and it was very muddy after several weeks of rain. I remember these cows with their udders literally dragging in the mud and I wondered how their calves could ever nurse in those conditions. Maybe it is just because I have lived in a drier climate, but this really bothered me.

I am not saying that any of you are wrong. I am just trying to figure out what the logic is to where we are going. When I pick up a breed magazine from the mid 80s I wonder what the logic was to those extreme tall no muscle frail  cattle that everyone said we needed then as well. The so called college experts told us these cattle was where we needed to be. They were dead wrong ... and they cost many breeders a big pile of money by promoting this kind.  Is this just another fad as the many we have seen in the past? Is this just a show ring thing or do we want all our cows to look like a Kenworth on a Volkswagon frame? Are there any structural issues with selection in this direction? I firmly believe that Dr. Bonsma from South Africa was right in his analysis that all the bones in the animals body must be in fairly exacting proportions in order for there to be no structural issues. Are we reducing traits like longevity  by some of our selection? This is a very important economical issue that is often overlooked. I am asking the questions because I don't know all the answers... and I sometimes think that many times our selection for traits is done without consideration of how it will affect other economic traits.

 

[olsun]

Justintime, as for your comments I need only say amen  (clapping).Over the years, show cattle have always gone to extreem limits before being corrected, and even the corrections are carried to the extreem.First too short and small, then too tall. It is for sure that cattle can get too thick to be functional as well as too deep, just as it is a fact that legs can be too straight as well as too sicled.The trick to having good cattle, is to always stay functional.JMHO.

 

[Jill]

JIT I totally agree with you!  We shipped 2 of our best recips last year because it was just too much to get the calves started, they were great with incredible udders, but that doesn't help when they are down in mud.

 

[BIGTEX]

I really respect a judge that is not afraid to pick a smoother, sounder calf that can handle his finished weight without being a cripple over one that is just muscle without the  structure to handle it.

I agree but, I heard a judge say you can't taste structural soundness. As long as they can get to the feed trough. Kinda like bone and hair.

 

[aj]

I know this board kinda gets to be a mutual admiration society with say 10 people always praising each other but I'll give er a little hell here. The show ring has its place.....structural correctness and publicity come to mind. And it always kills me when the commercial segment is looked down. Holly cow...we are discussing convenience traits in our recepient cows and not the purebred cattle we raise. It is hard to put a square peg through a round hole for the calving topic. And bone hurts cutability in on the rail. Purebred cattle are all et's and no one uses natural selection pressure no adays for convenience traits anymore. People blindly stack numbers on epds in my opinion. The showring is a joke in the real world cause birth dates are lied about. Birth weights are lied about. Judges are carefuly trained to pick cattle that the big wheels are raising. Hair is painted and fake hair is glued and real hair is grown artifically in air conditioned boxes that are nicer than some people s homes. Calves are fed to death in order to be a display bull in denver without ever siring a calf naturally. There are progressive commercial ranches out there that have never been to a jackpot show. If they saw a cattle show they would die laughing. I think some purebred breeders take them selves a little to seriously when THEY sit down and discuss what types the beef industry needs to follow. If we want to know what kinda cattle work...go to the Midland bull test station and see what sells. Or go to a feedlot and look at a pen of cattle who's bwts averaged 74 pounds...that went 80% choice and qualified for cab at an alarming level. IF we as purebred breeders want to be viable we need to find out what the commercial cattle want. When we sit back in our et barn with air conditioned video camera equiped calving unit and are playing on a internet disscussion board raising heck about what we think those dumbass commercial guys need to do we are lost puppies in a blizzard. I don't think it matters what the showring cattle do cause 85% of them never make it to the real world anyway. jmo

 

[jbw]

If we took two years off of checking, pulling and c-sections, let mother nature take its coarse, mother-nature would eliminate these problems for us!  Everyone just go on vacation this spring. (lol)

 

[aj]

I agree jbw! Would you like to join my mutual admiration society? ;D

 

[red]

if an animal is structurally unsound it can't make it to feeder & thus no pounds. We do need to keep in mind that these are supposed to be market animals & potenial breeding stock. Too much bone creates calving problems. But give me my ground sow anyday. I'd love to have a dozen of her. I look for soundness, spring of rib & depth in my breeding stock. Also temperment!
Red