What are the odds?

[Ozraptor]

Hi again folks, a question for y'all  ;D

What are the odds that the Danes used imported Aberdeen Angus bulls in the mid 1800's to kick start their modern dairy industry?

Jack

 

[knabe]

pretty good as someone probably, with a good competitive spirit noticed they were doing it with shorthorns, and to be different, tried angus.

http://www.jstor.org/view/00220507/di975529/97p07713/0

what do animals look like that grow on a high butterfat content other than more weight look like ?  smooth butter skin with flaky tails?

 

[TJ]

what do animals look like that grow on a high butterfat content other than more weight look like ?  smooth butter skin with flaky tails?

Since you asked the question, I thought that I would post a picture of one.  This is a 2 week old heifer whose mother was a 1st calf Tarentaise heifer (high butterfat content).  BTW Ozraptor, she was sired by a Lowline bull (Tequilla X Midshipman/Mugga Marnie), so she probably traces back to Erica too. 

 

[OH Breeder]

Nice heifer

 

[knabe]

when i was in college, tarentais were popular in the desert in eastern oregon as part of a 3-way cross.  i am still intrigued by the idea of a smaller, tighter udder with higher butterfat giving the same pounds as a larger, lower butterfat udder.  It would also be interesting to see how to market these cattle if both low and high milk were a problem in the target customer.  does anyone cull based on a small udder, but otherwise equally growing offspring?  If one did the opposite, ie select FOR the smaller udder, but equally growing calf, would one expect to increase butterfat and pounds over time or just stay the same?

 

[TJ]

Nice heifer

Thanks OH breeder... she was one of my very 1st F1 calves, born back in 2005.  I think she is pretty good for what she is...a female who will frame score around a 4,  who weighed 52 lbs. at birth, was born unassisted & her mother calved 30 days earlier the next year on calf #2.  She's bred to calve for the 1st time this fall & I can't wait for that calf to be born.  It was an experiment & so far, I am very happy with the results. 

 

[TJ]

when i was in college, tarentais were popular in the desert in eastern Oregon as part of a 3-way cross.  i am still intrigued by the idea of a smaller, tighter udder with higher butterfat giving the same pounds as a larger, lower butterfat udder.  It would also be interesting to see how to market these cattle if both low and high milk were a problem in the target customer.  does anyone cull based on a small udder, but otherwise equally growing offspring?  If one did the opposite, ie select FOR the smaller udder, but equally growing calf, would one expect to increase butterfat and pounds over time or just stay the same?

I bet you are referring to the market created by the Hatfield's High Desert Ranch/Oregon Country Beef.  They had a 3-way composite of Angus or Red Angus, Hereford & 50% Tarentaise.  FWIW, when Kit Pharo 1st started selling bulls, he followed the Hatfield's basic model & offered a 3 way composite of Angus or Red Angus, Hereford & 50% Tarentaise.  Matter of fact, Kit used a few of the Hatfield composite bull's in his composite program.  Speaking of Kit, he bought a couple of Tarentaise bulls from my dad & had really good success with them.  One of the bulls that my dad sold him, Bluegrass Energizer, sired a composite bull calf that was the top gaining forage bull at over 3 lbs. per day according to Kit's sales catalogue.  Leachman's also sold some composites & crossbred Tarentiase back in the 1990's at their sale.  Most of those were crossed with Red Angus, South Devon & Gelbvieh.  I know several operations, from large to small, who have focused on producing Tarentaise X Angus seedstock for commercial producers.   

My favorite combo is a Tarentaise X Angus female and that is the major reason why I am now crossing Tarentaise with Lowline Angus. Tarentaise X Angus were the high selling pen of commercial heifers 3 years in a row at the NWSS (I think 1993-1996), winning either Grand or Res. Commercial Pen all 3 years.  Tarentaise X Angus females are moderate framed, have small, but nice udders, and usually wean a high percentage of the their body weight.  Plus, if the right Angus influence is used (like Oldhe's or Lowlines), that cross has a tremendous amount natural fleshing ability. 

I can't say for certain, but after watching probably thousands of Tarentaise X Angus females in many different commercial environments across the U.S.,  it is my belief that a female with a higher percentage of butter fat in their milk will wean a heavier calf than will a female giving equal milk, but less butterfat.  Do I have scientific data to prove that?  No, it is just my opinion based on observation & I can be wrong.   I like to select for nicely made, tight udders, but what I really like to see is a female that can wean a high percentage of their body weight, yet still maintain their body condition, while nursing their calf, without a lot of inputs.  I think that is the goal that you are likely after as well.     

 

[genes]

Hmmm now that I think of it, we might have had one tarentaise cow for a time.  She would always put some pounds on her calf.  Can't say the we kept any heifers out of her (just sold them straight off the pasture while they were fat from the milk), so I can't comment on the cross with angus part.

 

[TJ]

One thing that I want to point out, is that like every other breed, some Tarentaise are much better than others.  It all boils down to selection & genetics.  I've seen some Tarentaise cows that I flat out didn't like at all. 

 

[TJ]

I'll admit, this isn't a calf that any of you would probably want to take into a showring.  Also, you can see that this calf was starting to suck his mother down (of course he was around 8 months old) & her udder isn't all that small either.  However, just in case anyone is curious about what a moderate framed (5), Fullblood (100%) Tarentaise cow is capable of producing, due to their high butterfat content of their milk, here is a picture of the very 1st Tarentaise cow that I ever purchased, along with her 1993 bull calf.  He was right around 8 months old when I weaned him about 20-30 minutes after I took that picture.

TJ

 

[OH Breeder]

TJ,
Help, if I remeber right Tartentaise have a kind of dish shaped face and rings around the eyes. usually kinky curly hair and are red reddish brown?
Great picture on that calf. Looks like she is feeding them right. Good luck with your program, it seems as though you have a pretty good handle on what your goals and objectives are.

 

[TJ]

TJ,
Help, if I remember right Tartentaise have a kind of dish shaped face and rings around the eyes. usually kinky curly hair and are red reddish brown?
Great picture on that calf. Looks like she is feeding them right. Good luck with your program, it seems as though you have a pretty good handle on what your goals and objectives are.

You are correct regarding the fullbloods, but right now, you will be very hard pressed to find a fullblood Tarentaise in the U.S..  Like most other breeds, the emphasis went towards the purebreds (mostly because of #'s) & the true fullbloods faded off into the sunset.  Most of the Tarentaise cattle that my dad currently owns are black purebreds (because that is what most commercial producers want) or real dark brown purebreds, although he still has a few cows that are the original breed color.  All the bulls that my dad keeps are black.  Obviously, the black Tarentaise have been bred up from an Angus base  & that also has resulted in many of them also being polled.  With the exception of the heads on the bulls & the udders on the females, you almost can't tell the difference between many of his purebred Tarentaise & a stout made Angus.  BTW, the Energizer bull that Kit Pharo purchased from my dad about 10 years ago was black & polled.   

 

[TJ]

This is one of my dad's 1st calf heifers.  It's not a great picture, but it will work.  This is what I call dark brown.  Most of my dad's cattle are at least this color or a lot blacker (like the calves pictured).  She has the type of udder that I prefer... small & tight.   

BTW, in case anyone is curious, 2 of the baby calves in the picture are F1's (Tarentaise X Lowline) & 1 of the calves is a Lowline embryo.

 

[genes]

That heifer looks a lot like the cow we had in her head shape and colour.  Now I really think she must have been Tarentaise.

From that picture it looks like you have the right kind of them.  I've seen some poor ones at shows around me.  Guess it is the same as every breed, except with only a small number of breeders, one mediocre one could really taint people's image if that's all they see.

Oh, and not all cattle are destined for the show ring...but it doesn't always make them bad cattle....don't apologize for that. 

 

[TJ]

TJ,
Great picture on that calf. Looks like she is feeding them right. Good luck with your program, it seems as though you have a pretty good handle on what your goals and objectives are.

Thanks!  I know what I want to do, I just hope that it keeps on working out like I think that it will... that's always the tricky part, as you probably already know, nothing ever seems to work exactly like it is planned, at least not for me. 

 

[red]

TJ- I really appreciate seeing some different breeds of cattle than the ones we are all used too! Especially when they are really nice looking representatives of the breed!
Thank you very much!!

(welcome)

Red

 

[TJ]

From that picture it looks like you have the right kind of them.  I've seen some poor ones at shows around me.  Guess it is the same as every breed, except with only a small number of breeders, one mediocre one could really taint people's image if that's all they see.

Oh, and not all cattle are destined for the show ring...but it doesn't always make them bad cattle....don't apologize for that. 

I am going to have to agree with you, I've seen some Tarentaise animals at few shows that I thought were rather poor & yes, they do leave a long lasting negative impression of the breed overall!!  

The French mostly use Tarentaise as dairy cows to make a special cheese & several of the imported bulls where, IMHO, way too dairy!!  I wasn't involved in the breed nor was I old enough at the time, but I have seen plenty of pictures, heard enough stories & have personally seen how the genetics worked several generations down the road, that I feel confident to  conclude that probably at least 50% of the Tarentaise genetics that were imported into the U.S. & Canada, had no business ever leaving France, IMHO.  

BTW, the Lowline Angus are much the same way.  Some of those aren't so hot either, but I've also seen some very good ones (if you like smaller cattle that is).  Some are around a frame 1-2 (48-50 inches tall) & some are absolute midgets (reportedly only 32 inches tall).  

I think that both breeds have a place in commercial cow herds.  However, I believe that much like the Chianina (we used to have those too), they really need to be used in a crossbreeding program & probably will work better as a composite breed.  As with any breed or composite, I think it is all about personal preference, selection & genetics as to what you end up with.   Over time, if you cull hard enough for the right traits, I think that you will end up with an improved herd, no matter what breed or composite you are using.  However, the opposite is true as well.

All that is just my humble opinion...

       

 

[knabe]

please take this the right way, when i first saw the picture of the cow, it looked like a chimera meat guernsey with an ildeno head with the funny hair thing going on at the poll, with an ohlde udder, real forward, with nice small teats and a good smooth cunia shoulder.  nice looking cow, interesting coat.  totally awesome how easy it is to see something new and focus on the positive.  like the black dock too.

ohh and i can't resist, any tenderness genes?

 

[TJ]

TJ- I really appreciate seeing some different breeds of cattle than the ones we are all used too! Especially when they are really nice looking representatives of the breed!
Thank you very much!!

(welcome)

Red

Thanks!  The pics I posted are some of the better end animals, but maybe aren't the best animals.  I had those pics handy, so I posted them.   

 

[TJ]

please take this the right way, when i first saw the picture of the cow, it looked like a chimera meat guernsey with an ildeno head with the funny hair thing going on at the poll, with an ohlde udder, real forward, with nice small teats and a good smooth cunia shoulder.  nice looking cow, interesting coat.  totally awesome how easy it is to see something new and focus on the positive.  like the black dock too.

ohh and i can't resist, any tenderness genes?

Ildeno, now that is a name I haven't heard in a while!!  We used to have an Ildeno son in our herd.  It's interesting that you mention that about her head.  That heifer was bred up from an Angus cow that came out of Canada.  When we bought that Canadian "Angus" herd, they had that "Chi-angus look" to them, although they were supposed to be registered Angus & they were fairly moderate framed & probably weighed 1300 lbs..  So, I would not be at all surprised if somewhere along the line if somebody did slip a little Chianina into that herd because they had that low percentage Chi look to them.

RE your tenderness question... my dad has never tested any of his cattle for tenderness, despite my constant encouragement for him to do so.  We used to work together, but we really butt heads & about 10 years ago I decided that it was better for me to do my own thing & for him do his.  However, I still help him when he needs help, he still asks me for advice & I still voice my opinions... sometimes he listens & sometimes he doesn't.   My dad & I think a lot a like, but we are also totally different in some regards.   

Anyway, my dad did sell a group of heifers to a gentleman in Missouri several years ago & that person tested that whole group.  Most of those heifers came back testing 2 out of 2 stars for tenderness (the original Genestar tenderness test).  He ended up using those heifers as donor cows in his composite program. 

Also, we did compete in the Great Western Beef Expo in Sterling, CO two different years back in the mid 90's & we won several plaques both years.  They never tested for tenderness, but one year we did have the highest overall carcass value animal, the only steer to grade prime with a yield grade 2 (and it was a fullblood), the 2nd highest gaining steer overall, a top 10 pen for feed efficiency & we narrowly missed winning the Max Fulcher carass award by .001 of a point because one of the steers yield graded exactly 3.00, but our whole pen graded choice or higher & everything else in the pen was less than a 3.00 yield grade.     

Back in the 90's, Ankenman Ranch in Oklahoma, also did very well in the Oklahoma Steer Feedout with purebred Tarentaise steers.  One year they tested for tenderness using a shear force test.  Anything under 8.5 would be a very tender steak.  8.5 - 10 lbs. would be a tender steak.  Anything over 10 lbs. would be considered a tough steak.   41 of their Tarentaise steers avg'ed 8.41 lbs. (very tender).  All 131 steers in the test (including Ankenman's 41) avg'ed 8.98 lbs. (tender steaks).  If my math is correct, that means that the other 90 steers avg'ed around 9.24 lbs. (which is still tender).     

With all that said, while I don't have the GeneStar test on my dad's cattle, I feel pretty confident in telling you that I think that she shouldl do OK on the tenderness test.  I plan to test some of my F1's fairly soon & I'll let you know how that turns out.