“New” North American Shorthorn Genetic Evaluation

[Okotoks]

New Shorthorn EPD's released. Here is a link to the ASA website. I guess we can all start to relearn what average is again ??? Seems to me average for any EPD should be zero but that would make it harder to get +100 yearling weight EPD's. If you are going to compare against other breeds I guess you have to do what they do.  <beer>

http://shorthorn.org/shperformance/breedavg/breedavg_shperformance.html

" The “New” North American Shorthorn Genetic Evaluation is finally complete, representing over a year of diligence and effort by the ASA Board and staff! These EPDs were calculated by the American Simmental Association as part of their multi-breed genetic evaluation. The first thing you will notice is that the EPD breed averages are far different in some columns, not much in others. The entire set of EPDs are now on the same “base” as Simmental, Red Angus, Gelbvieh, and a growing number of other breeds. As a result, our EPDs are comparable with those breeds within the columns that are identical (BW vs. BW, Marbling vs. Marbling). Even still, Shorthorn calculates a $CEZ, Simmental does not; Simmental calculates Stayability EPD, Shorthorn does not. All said, you will still find differences breed to breed in what is presented.

Another major change involves the $Indexes. These are complex math equations aimed at helping breeders and buyers select for multiple traits at the same time, avoiding the pitfalls of single-trait selection. Though the relative economic differences between the traits remain constant in the formulas, the breed base is now far different. Consequently, the $ Values have changed significantly, but their percentile rank within an index and even each EPD should be relatively similar. In other words, if a bull was in the top 10% for YW and $Feedlot in the previous evaluation, the bull should still be at or near the top 10% in this evaluation.

The power of this data still lies in the hands of the breeders. ShorthornPlus cattle will have better EPD predictions, but ONLY if the non-Shorthorn side of the pedigree is built in the registry system. Remember, Angus, Chianina, Maine-Anjou, club calf bulls, and many other composite sires are represented in this evaluation in addition to Shorthorn, Gelbvieh, Red Angus, & Simmental. In the end, bull and female buyers can search for genetics from multiple breeds and compare the performance profiles against one another. Within the Shorthorn breed, we have known our strengths and weaknesses versus our competitors…now we get to gauge our genetic progress moving forward."

 

[BTDT]

The last time the shorthorn messed with their EPD's, all their BW epd's went down dramatically, so am I to guess that is what happened again?  Especially if they are trying to compete with the red angus, gelv, angus.

I also have to chuckle at the last line: Within the Shorthorn breed, we have known our strengths and weaknesses versus our competitors…now we get to gauge our genetic progress moving forward.    The shorthorn breed has always known their weaknesses and all the "adjusting of numbers" will not make them commercially acceptable until the breed itself changes. 

 

[Okotoks]

The last time the shorthorn messed with their EPD's, all their BW epd's went down dramatically, so am I to guess that is what happened again?  Especially if they are trying to compete with the red angus, gelv, angus.

I also have to chuckle at the last line: Within the Shorthorn breed, we have known our strengths and weaknesses versus our competitors…now we get to gauge our genetic progress moving forward.    The shorthorn breed has always known their weaknesses and all the "adjusting of numbers" will not make them commercially acceptable until the breed itself changes.

I have looked at quite a few bulls now and the major changes seem to be in the EPD spreads on milk, weaning weight and yearling weight where the the top end have much higher numbers now. There does not seem to be as much change on the Calving Ease and Birth Weight #'s. Not sure why that would be but the Shorthorn numbers would now be running against a much bigger data base if I understand this correctly.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

 

[beebe]

The last time the shorthorn messed with their EPD's, all their BW epd's went down dramatically, so am I to guess that is what happened again?  Especially if they are trying to compete with the red angus, gelv, angus.

I also have to chuckle at the last line: Within the Shorthorn breed, we have known our strengths and weaknesses versus our competitors…now we get to gauge our genetic progress moving forward.    The shorthorn breed has always known their weaknesses and all the "adjusting of numbers" will not make them commercially acceptable until the breed itself changes.

What changes do you think need to be made to be commercially acceptable?

 

[r.n.reed]

The last time the shorthorn messed with their EPD's, all their BW epd's went down dramatically, so am I to guess that is what happened again?  Especially if they are trying to compete with the red angus, gelv, angus.

I also have to chuckle at the last line: Within the Shorthorn breed, we have known our strengths and weaknesses versus our competitors…now we get to gauge our genetic progress moving forward.    The shorthorn breed has always known their weaknesses and all the "adjusting of numbers" will not make them commercially acceptable until the breed itself changes. 

I am not sure where you are coming from on this one BTDT.To me joining with the other breeds would make our numbers more reliable and transparent.If what you say is true then that would infer that the other breeds are complicit in this '' dressing up'' of our epd's.It should also be noted that the ASA is also only accepting data from WHR herds now which will also greatly improve the reliability of our epd's

 

[RyanChandler]

To be more commercially acceptable:

Shorthorns need more performance.  More performance WITHOUT more frame.  Bulls whose daughters mature at 12-1300lbs. We need these cows to wean 50% of their body weight and we need our bull calves to have enough gas to be 6 frame 1200lb yearlings.  We don't need little pudgy 8" eye, 4 frame bulls, nor do we need 8 frame 1400lb yearling weights.

***A producer who consistently raises red / dark roan, 1200lb, 6 frame yearling bulls who have actual birth weights under 90lbs will sell SHORTHORN bulls all day long.***

 

[justintime]

To be more commercially acceptable:

Shorthorns need more performance.  More performance WITHOUT more frame.  Bulls whose daughters mature at 12-1300lbs. We need these cows to wean 50% of their body weight and we need our bull calves to have enough gas to be 6 frame 1200lb yearlings.  We don't need little pudgy 8" eye, 4 frame bulls, nor do we need 8 frame 1400lb yearling weights.

***A producer who consistently raises red / dark roan, 1200lb, 6 frame yearling bulls who have actual birth weights under 90lbs will sell SHORTHORN bulls all day long.***

I agree with much of what you have stated here xbar, but I think some things are more "regional" in nature. 15 years ago, I was trying to develop a solid red herd of Shorthorns. I could hardly sell a white bull. About 10 years ago, I started to see changes and my roan and white bulls started to become the first ones out of the bull pen each spring. Right now, we are seeing the most interest in Shorthorn genetics I have ever seen in my entire lifetime in this breed. I find more and more producers are considering using a Shorthorn bull. Roan and white bulls are extremely popular and I don't have any left each spring. This year I had to find over 10 roan or white bulls for producers who contacted me after we were sold out of them. One guy with a black commercial herd wanted 6 white or red neck roan bulls. It took awhile, but he found them.
As far as performance and frame, where I live we need performance... at least enough to compare with other breeds. I can only sell a small framed  low birthweight bull to someone who has some heifers to breed. The last two bulls I sold this year were two late April bulls that I was planning to hold over and sell as two year olds. I received a phone call from a guy who said something to me that I have never heard from any producer before. He said that he was selling two of his herd bulls because they were giving him 70 lb calves. I asked him what he meant by that, and he said that his cows were quite capable of having 90- 100 lb calves unassisted and that he was losing too much performance from these bulls. He also said that he had purchased these two bulls for over $4000 last year but he was sending them to market anyways. I told him all I had were two young bulls and that they had passed their semen tests. I told him that I was planning to hold them over to sell next spring and he asked me if I would accept $3800 each if he took them both. Needless to say, they are no longer here.

I do not think there is any exact requirement for what any breed should look like. There are regional differences in what is the desired " type and size". What works for one breeder may not be anything like what works for another. I have one cattleman who complains to me regularly that he can't find Shorthorn bulls with BWs over 110 lbs close to where he lives. He loves bigger cattle with lots of performance. He calves in January and has a beautiful calving barn that almost all his cows go through when he calves. He is not concerned about helping some cows calve... but he is truly the exception to the rule.

 

[Will]

I just looked at one of our bulls and it changed his numbers drastically.  His birth went up and but his growth numbers went up significantly.  He was about average on growth now he is in the top 20%.  That also pushed all of his maternal numbers down significantly. 

 

[oakview]

The new numbers will probably be more accurate and useful, but will definitely take some getting used to.  I'm not used to seeing weaning and yearling EPS that high. 

I'm happy to see the Shorthorn making some real inroads into the commercial market in Canada.  Hope it spreads south.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Yea, I looked up one bull that was 2 points below breed average for bw now he is a point above.  Dont quite know about that one. 

 

[RyanChandler]

Yea, I looked up one bull that was 2 points below breed average for bw now he is a point above.  Dont quite know about that one.

It's simple--he is below breed average in the shorthorns but above the average when including the other breeds into the equation.

 

[cbcr]

While these new EPDs, which are multi breed (the multi-breed animals will only be the breeds that are in the breed composition of the animals that are in the database), with the American Simmental Association performing the evaluations, the evaluation database will have more Simmental animals that those of the other breeds.

But the database will also have Angus, Red Angus, Gelbvieh, Maine Anjou and some other breeds as well.  With both the Simmental and Gelbvieh breed also having SimBrah and the Southern Balancer there will be some Brahman in the database as well.

Now with the Shorthorn Association, this breed is now included in the database.

What will be more important with a multi-breed evaluation, is now to look at the percentile ranking of the animals.

On Calving Ease as an example, if animals that are in the top 20%, then (if you are looking at a bull) he should be OK to use on heifers.  But if you are looking to breed Angus heifers, you would want to select a bull that ranks maybe in the top 5% or so. 

Where these numbers are different, if you remember, their used to be adjustment factors that were provided by BIF - Beef Improvement Federation, that we used to compare animals of different breeds.  While these BIF numbers at the time were the best tool that was available, there was no adjustment for an animal that was 50% Simmental and 50% Angus (you could only use the Simmental Adjustment).

With these multi-breed EPDs, breed composition is supposed to be taken into consideration, so the EPD percentile ranking should be more of an accurate ranking of an animal regardless of the breed makeup animal.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Yea, I looked up one bull that was 2 points below breed average for bw now he is a point above.  Dont quite know about that one.

It's simple--he is below breed average in the shorthorns but above the average when including the other breeds into the equation.

So.....the ones that are above breed average now - +3.0 or +4.5 - are giants with elephants weight for other breeds!! Is this?

 

[beebe]

To be more commercially acceptable:

Shorthorns need more performance.  More performance WITHOUT more frame.  Bulls whose daughters mature at 12-1300lbs. We need these cows to wean 50% of their body weight and we need our bull calves to have enough gas to be 6 frame 1200lb yearlings.  We don't need little pudgy 8" eye, 4 frame bulls, nor do we need 8 frame 1400lb yearling weights.

***A producer who consistently raises red / dark roan, 1200lb, 6 frame yearling bulls who have actual birth weights under 90lbs will sell SHORTHORN bulls all day long.***

Just out of curiosity how do you define performance?

 

[RyanChandler]

W/ a scale.

 

[beebe]

W/ a scale.

Just pounds?  Is there an optimum that might be more important than maximum.  Also I think there should be some cosideration of the composition of gain as well as the rate of gain.  I do agree strongly with your point of not needing more frame.  A prominent shorthorn breeder of yesteryear once told me performance "is the ability to convert grass to a desireable marketable product".  All cattle can do that, some do it better than others.  I sell meat at a 25% premium over the comodity market.  The reason that I can do that is I sell a product that is well above average in tenderness that is adequately marbled.  I do it on grass without a feed lot, grazing most of the year so my cost is low even though my rate of gain is slow.  So I think there is more than pounds involved.  If you can gain 25% more than I do without adding to the cost of gain, then I guess you are just as well off as I am. I agree with JIT that things change as the region changes.  And the great thing about the cattle business is that I get to make my own choices and so does every other cattle raiser and I wish them success.

 

[RyanChandler]

All Shorthorns are well above average for marbling and tenderness. My hunch is that you could produce the same quality beef using growthier genetics than you likely think you have to settle for.

Using a percentage of mature cow weight as a weaning weight standard develops the optimum. More cattle need to wean a larger percentage of their own weight. We need to shorten and steepen the growth curve to increase wda while keeping downward pressure on mature fame. I've looked at a lot of close outs and I don't know that I've ever seen a calf with the lowest cost of gain be the most profitable. 

 

[sue]

Multi genetic epds really happend. So proud - just over a year this was a topic in a committee meeting and it has actually here! Great leadership, it's a tool that will soon see more added value.  WHR has a real meaning now for shorthorn too.  Epds for only those that participate !

 

[EaglesNest]

Yea, I looked up one bull that was 2 points below breed average for bw now he is a point above.  Dont quite know about that one.

I looked up a cow that was way down in negatives for CE and now is positive 2 above breed avg. only thing I can see that these new EPDs have accomplished is improving numbers of maine influenced strains and some clubbier lines....radically different than the numbers before as expected with multi breed comparison but seems unrealistic to go from somewhere around -12 to jump to positive 2. That is a BIG spread imho.