A Maine- Anjou bull in Paris 2009

[Telos]

Found this picture of a Maine Fullblood at a Show in Paris 2009. Although he is huge, I like his rib shape. Was wondering what we could have done with his genetics thirty years ago.

 

[clubcalve]

wow He is huge

 

[xxcc]

ick, look at his back legs.

what makes you think he was better than the bulls of 30 years ago, or even 40.  I'd have to say Cunia and Covino III, even Iabon, might trounce this bull in over all effect on a breed (industry rather).

 

[Telos]

ick, look at his back legs.

what makes you think he was better than the bulls of 30 years ago, or even 40.  I'd have to say Cunia and Covino III, even Iabon, might trounce this bull in over all effect on a breed (industry rather).

I never said he was better. Only something different. I would rather have his leg set then something more post legged though. His structural integrity IMO appears to be well designed for traveling and quite able of supporting such a big guy. He probably is a cow killer and it would take thirty years of selective breeding to make a bull like that work in our cattle system. I just like cattle that have that optimum internal dimension, which he definately has, and maybe new genetics to exploit. JMO XXCC. <beer>

 

[chambero]

I thought Heat Wave was the only bull that was a cow killer?  A lot of folks forget the troubles commercial guys willingly put up with when Simmis, Limos, and others first started being used, and still are to a certain extent.

 

[Mark H]

Of the original imports in the 1960's and early 1970's the only argument is whether the Maine Anjou was the hardest calving breed or just one of the hardest calving breeds.  A bull named Crack stands out in my mind in particular.  Bulls like Epinal and Cunia were relatively easy calving compared to the rest of the breed and that is why they became popular.  The breed at the time was a true dual purpose breed and the cows were milked giving around 7,000 to 8,000 lb. of milk per lactation on grass.  Extreme muscling was just beginning to be selected for (Dollar 2nd).
Today the breed is a beef breed in France.  It isn't even called Maine Anjou anymore but Rouge des Pres.  Selection for muscling has given many double muscled individuals in the breed.  The French breeders are aware of their calving problems and are trying to select for calving ease since calving problems are hurting them in France versus the Charolais and Blonde D'Aquitaine.
All the AI bulls in France undergo rigorous progeny testing and the selection process takes around 5 years.  Generally a bull of any breed in France has been pulled inside out  before he is approved for general AI use.  Do you think they would tolerate having bulls inferior to their sires in such a situation?  Compare this to the average clubby bull where no objective performance or calving data exists.  The French Rouge des Pres breeders select for cattle that do best in their environment where high performance is a must.  Producing a show winner is icing on the cake, not the reason the breed exists.

 

[CJC]

I think this cow could handle a HW baby.
http://www.maine-anjou.fr/v2/uploads/rte/Image/champion_aujourdhui/IMGP2538.JPG

 

[tama]

There is a reason for belguim blue/maines/blonds etc to be so large framed and maybe Mark H. could explain better than I can. I think we better keep a grasp of these genetics in case we need them! If we go the way of euromarket and can't alter bulls we will all
be eating veal! But seriously the breed evolves just like our industry-due to market niche. I wonder ageof pictured bull. If he has some years on that frame he has done well structurewise with the load he carries! Also have to figure AI use would be high on cattle that size right? JIT just thought I know you have a good touch with bulls from the past etc and wondering when we first started up the frame chart with imports where did some of those old bulls compare as they aged?     

 

[knabe]

Today the breed is a beef breed in France.  that is managed somewhat like dairy over here.

It isn't even called Maine Anjou anymore but Rouge des Pres.  i think that is because of a lawsuit.  Rouge des Pres translates to reds in the field.

Selection for muscling has given many double muscled individuals in the breed.  debatable.  they select for carriers to generate double muscled calves, but whether carrier status adds muscle or not is not well defined.  supposedly fear this is a carrier, he's thick, so it would be nice to find out what the deal is.  there are two strains of double muscling calves, and both strains truncate a protein very early as opposed to very late, on which another breed bases it's product, as it's very late and imparts very tender almost mushy meat.

The French breeders are aware of their calving problems and are trying to select for calving ease since calving problems are hurting them in France versus the Charolais and Blonde D'Aquitaine. some of the double muscle free bulls are calving ease bulls, so double muscling carriers may indeed be more massive.....

All the AI bulls in France undergo rigorous progeny testing and the selection process takes around 5 years.  Generally a bull of any breed in France has been pulled inside out  before he is approved for general AI use.  literally.  some of the pictures still have zippers on the cows and it is supposedly routine to perform c-sections.

Do you think they would tolerate having bulls inferior to their sires in such a situation?  hmm, most breeds have gone directions that limited diversity to conditions, wouldn't hold the europeans or anyone on a pedestal for idealism.  the hallowed angus "tolerated" defects for decades.  no one is exempt from tolerating things which may create unintended consequences.

Compare this to the average clubby bull where no objective performance or calving data exists.  The French Rouge des Pres breeders select for cattle that do best in their environment where high performance is a must on generally lower quality feedstuff where size has an advantage for efficiency according to some research. 

Producing a show winner is icing on the cake, not the reason the breed exists.  the show winners become the 25 or so that get registered, so showing is part of the reason they exist.  their system, to me is accelerating a homogeneous population that can not travel to eat, hence the pictures of them being managed like a dairy with all their feedstuffs in bunks.  yes, many are on pasture as well.  this is actually a strength as far as temperament goes because they have been around man closely for generations.

most farms in europe are small, so cattle don't have to travel. 

investigate when they are slaughtered.  i think you will be amazed.  it's almost like heavy veal.  the maine growth curve is something that over here rears it's head all the time and is toned down with terms like "later maturing" which means they will get big, yes, as big as heavy steers in the 80's.

for clarity, i love maine's, it's all i have.

 

[Mark H]

In France they do not like tall narrow cattle.  Their cattle have to get by on grass even to finish no matter what the breed because grain is so expensive.  Back then they had a maximum height requirement for yearling bulls-I think it was around 55 inches at the shoulder in the 1960's.  Generally the original french beef breeds like the Charolais tend to be easier keepers and be more muscular than their domestic purebred cousins.  We can get away with selecting more for growth here because we can feed cheaper grain and easy keeping does not count for as much in the cow herd.  But also keep in mind their idea of a good carcass isn't the same as ours.  They want lean, muscular carcasses since the emphasis is always on efficiency no matter the breed.  That explains the popularity of the Belgian Blue versus the classical Charolais or Limousin in Europe. market steer winners in Britain tend to be big lean meat wagons relative to any winning steer in the United States.
It would be interesting to see some Maine breeders import some outcross full blood genetics just for comparison and to get rid of the genetic defect problems.
Kanbe,  in Europe selection against zipper cows has begun.  the animal rights people are using double muscling as a form of cruelty to animals.  What this has meant is that they are selecting for calving ease particularly in Northern Europe.  Canadian Charolais bulls are very popular in Europe now as a result.
Also the Maine Anjou breeders in the 1960's and 1970's in order to increase the genetic diversity of the breed used some MRI bulls.  All the pied breeds in Europe have genetic diffusion between them.  Most of the Fleckvieh AI bulls have some Holstein blood the type we import are very few in number indeed in Germany.  The Blond D'Aquiane breed is a composite of native blonde cattle, Limousin, and Charolais formed in the 1960's.  Europeans put less stock in purity than we do.
The experiment I am watching is the IRA95 project.  They are combining double muscled breeds from all over Europe into one synthetic line in order to determine breeding strategies for more reliable productivity in double muscled bulls since most of the double muscled bulls produced by traditional breeders are duds.  This project will also allow us to see how the different alleles that can cause muscular hypertrophy interact something noticeably lacking today.
The Europeans are not idealistic far from it.  If you go to Europe beware-they will stick to you every chance they get.  We had a way of beating them at their own game enough so they bought cattle back in the end
Lastly the question i ask is why can't the Maine Anjou breed get its act together and move on from bulls calved in the 1960's?  Is it lack of genetic improvement or no objective standards or a bit of both?

 

[knabe]

The experiment I am watching is the IRA95 project.  They are combining double muscled breeds from all over Europe into one synthetic line (with how many of the double muscling alleles? there is a test for it, and most of the original sequencing work was done in europe)in order to determine breeding strategies for more reliable productivity in double muscled bulls since most of the double muscled bulls produced by traditional breeders are duds.  This project will also allow us to see how the different alleles that can cause muscular hypertrophy interact something noticeably lacking today.  they probably won't interact.  they are alleles.  i guess if you wanted to make a double muscled bull with different alleles, you could try that, but to me, it's like taking 1%, cutting in half and calling it 50% change in meat quality.

Lastly the question i ask is why can't the Maine Anjou breed get its act together and move on from bulls calved in the 1960's?  Is it lack of genetic improvement or no objective standards or a bit of both?

it was alluded to earlier with the tall cattle, then angus took over.  markers will remove the hide.  but it will take time.  it's underestimated how little fat is needed for the vast majority of the beef market.  remember, in europe, people slice meat thin, roll it, pound it, cook a lot different than us.  we still try and sell prime rib, filet's, new york's and try and hide the fact there is a lot of good meat left on the carcass.

my favorite "new" cut is similar to what the europeans do, is slice round thin, roll it, or use it in stir fry.  quick easy, tender, no gristle, lean.  to me, "our" marketing in the US is a big problem.  we keep having ssssammm elliot types advertising beef and won't embrace anything else. i think it's great that the "image" europeans promote is showing in lab coats and getting rid of the folksy cowboy rugged individual that is outdated marketing wise.  more and more, people associate that image with resistance to change.

 

[knabe]

The experiment I am watching is the IRA95 project.  They are combining double muscled breeds from all over Europe into one synthetic line in order to determine breeding strategies for more reliable productivity in double muscled bulls since most of the double muscled bulls produced by traditional breeders are duds.  This project will also allow us to see how the different alleles that can cause muscular hypertrophy interact something noticeably lacking today.
The Europeans are not idealistic far from it.  If you go to Europe beware-they will stick to you every chance they get.  We had a way of beating them at their own game enough so they bought cattle back in the end
Lastly the question i ask is why can't the Maine Anjou breed get its act together and move on from bulls calved in the 1960's?  Is it lack of genetic improvement or no objective standards or a bit of both?

any update on this project?


regarding moving on from bulls born in the 60's (bulls beginning with the letter B and C, like buret and cunia in 68 and 69) i think the breed has moved on. sadly, i haven't

 

[mark tenenbaum]

"our" marketing in the US is a big problem.  we keep having ssssammm elliot types  advertising beef and won't embrace anything else. i think it's great that the "image" europeans promote is showing in lab coats and getting rid of the folksy cowboy rugged individual that is outdated marketing wise.  more and more, people associate that image with resistance to change Not me I am Saheeeeeed Shtshoot-I ssssssell de eh used EH car and Halllal Haf SSSSSMOKES-I buy PROMO TEAR GAS PENS from de eh Bots Wholessssssssale  O0