A question of small cattle logistics

[Mill Iron A]

Hello,

For all you small cattle people out there (lowline, galloway, etc) I'm wondering if half blood daughters of one of these small breeds bred to "average" sized angus cattle with the resulting cross being that elusive 1100 pound cow. Would these females be able to calve a moderate calving ease charolais embryo calf? I'm sure that this is just asking for problems but I would like to hear if anyone has done it, especially with any success. I'm thinking of doing some red angus embryos, I don't anticipate any problems there but am looking for efficient, low overhead recips and this is one of the ideas that I had.

Thanks for reading.

 

[HAB]

Galloways are typically 1000 - 1300 lbs.  Comparing them to true Lowlines is apples and oranges.  Galloway cows on average have a very large pelvic area so can have relatively big calves .

 

[librarian]

My experience has been the same as what Harley says.
So it's the old, it depends...
Depends on the maternal character of whatever the Galloway was crossed to. Shorthorn Galloway crosses are a traditional suckler cow in Great Britain. Galloway hardiness with extra milk. I think maybe the milk might be the limiting factor in success rather than the pelvic size.

From: http://www.whitebredshorthorn.com/features/scot_exec.html
8.8 In an experiment looking at the post-weaning nutrition of calves Wright and Russel (1987) found that the Charolais-cross progeny of Hereford x Friesian cows were heavier than those from Charolais cross Blue Grey cows. The weight difference remained constant throughout the experiment. This suggests that the difference was not due to higher potential for growth, but to the higher milk yields which have been reported for Hereford x Friesian cows. McDougal (1978) argued that the milk yield of the Blue Grey could be improved by more rigorous selection of Whitebred Shorthorn bulls. This would require records to be kept of calf performance in order to identify those bulls which conferred improved milking ability on their daughters

 

[oakview]

A friend of mine told me last week at the State Fair that he had to do a c-section on his mini-Hereford, bred to a mini-Hereford, calf weighed 41 pounds.  This is only one instance, I don't know if this is common or rare, just the only experience I've heard of.  I'm sure there are people out there that get along just fine.

 

[LazyGLowlines]

Lowlines crossed to commercial sized cattle will result in a 25-30% smaller calf than the dam. That said we fullblood lowlines (DNA verified 100%) that weight between 800 -1100 lbs. We just had a Fullblood cow calve a Hoover Dam heifer the resulting calf will be a half blood. These half blood calves will be bred to a fullblood bull for their first calf (just for calving ease) and after that they will be able to carry a calf from most any bull out there. Attached a picture of  the "Hoover Dam" calf

 

[Freddy]

Don't understand fully what you are after , good  4 year old  1000-1100 should have 100 lb. Charolais  calves till they  are 14-15 years of age .... Charolais calves don't need to be any bigger than that to raise  some very productive Charolais bull calves or heifers ....If you want information on the Lowlines and how profitable they are check with ADAMSON RANCH at CODY,NE.... The last I knew they had low line x KEY X  cow's were getting a premium at auction for these cattle for Butcher MEAT ..ALSO USING THEM TO PUT EMBRYO'S IN FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE ...

 

[SimFarmer]

I know that half blood lowlines can be bred to about any bull so i would say as long as the calves aren't over 100lbs it would work. We have been thinking of using some halfbloods as recips but we will only put in embryos that are sure to be on the average or smaller.

 

[librarian]

I'm always reading and hearing about Jersey cows having the ability to pass large calves and feed them well. How about a Jersey x Red Angus?

 

[Freddy]

DAIRY type cattle be ware of JOHNES  ...

 

[Mill Iron A]

My apologies on not understanding there was a large difference between Galloway and Lowlines. The questions really was me thinking out loud about efficiency. Right now I would like to round up recips that didn't take much feed.

Long term I think we need to go back to a systems approach to beef production. I have lots of friends in the Angus business and many of these people I have the largest respect for. I also dabble in the red angus with some of the same concepts that our industry has been going for. The one breed fits all approach. I can honestly say that yes we can do this system and they can do everything, maybe not overly well but we do have cattle that can "do it all." As I take a step back I realize that while this works in some scenarios, we have adapted it far too much in the beef industry.

I still like my red angus but am thinking about moving to a two breed cross rotation on the cows with a terminal cross. I have been fighting the "small cow" idea because I don't really believe they are the most efficient. However, they do eat less. Which means if I can have more small cows and breed them to an easy calving large frame terminal bull I can get more pounds of beef per acre. It's not rocket science. This used to be the standard in our industry. We have "progressed" past this mentality but again, I feel like that is a mistake. I want to be in a position seedstock wise to promote this system with commercial cattleman. So obviously I love my red angus and want to keep them on the maternal side. I'm thinking either galloway or red lowline for the other breed in the maternal to keep them small. Really like the moto moto bull from HAB. We have had some calves from this bull and I have seen him in person and he is just awesome. Sounds silly but he isn't red so that throws a kink in my marketing, otherwise I think I would be all in on the Galloway.

I have never seen a lowline but the size intrigues me. I will be seeing a lot of them next month and it seems like there are a lot of red lowlines out there too. Won't get the big kick in heterosis so that is a drawback.

I love charolais so that will be my terminal of choice.

Thanks for all the replies, just thought I would throw my brainstorming ideas out there. I really appreciate it.

 

[LazyGLowlines]

I'm thinking either galloway or red lowline for the other breed in the maternal to keep them small. Really like the moto moto bull from HAB. We have had some calves from this bull and I have seen him in person and he is just awesome. Sounds silly but he isn't red so that throws a kink in my marketing, otherwise I think I would be all in on the Galloway.

I have never seen a lowline but the size intrigues me. I will be seeing a lot of them next month and it seems like there are a lot of red lowlines out there too. Won't get the big kick in heterosis so that is a drawback.

we may be able to help on the Red Lowlines- We are the foundation herd here in America for the Red Lowlines

 

[librarian]

I only owned one low line cow and she was definitely easy keeping, but her cross bred calves really grew slow.
I was surrounded by a lot of folks who were into small cattle back in NY and even if they achieved a weaning weigh 60% of cow weight, the yearling weights were disappointing. A lot of that was inbreeding depression, I think, and a cross would have improved performance...but purists don't come easily to that idea.
My opinion is that one need not go to extremes. A 1300 lb cow doesn't eat that much more than an 1100 lb cow, but less than a 1500 lb cow. Increased thermal mass and slower metabolism are the rule as you go North. I heard every inch of hair saves a lot of feed in a cold environment.
I have a similar dilemma with the red. Three are many red Galloway bulls available these days...Alberta Plaid, Brass Ring, Hang 5...and I know crossing one of them on Red Angus or Shorthorns will make good beef and marketable heifers, but I just like dun and dun bulls catch my eye. What can one do?
Hang 5 is in Parkman, they have some nice reds.
pictures:
Red Galloways from Alberta Plaid.
Silver Dun from Scotland
Dun Red from Nebraska

 

[Go Green]

Is there any reason why Red Devons never come up? Are they considered a "mini breed"? i dont know anything about them but they advertise  in my grassfed magazines/newsletters. The bulls look nice!

 

[HAB]

Mill Iron A- Thanks for the comments about Moto Moto.  We do have some red gene carrier (out of red cows) bulls sired by Moto Moto.  We may have some red carrier heifers as well (haven't done the DNA tests on them yet.

Harley

 

[sue]

This would be a great question for TJ Stenger who used to be on the board. I know he crossed conventional size with low line .
I did see a group of lowline x shorthorn recips in a herd late last fall. I didnt think much about it- as the owner made the comment about it being a great cross and they were running among crossbred conventional size. He was proud of the size of calf they could have too. I have some photos.

Duff offered a group of bulls in last winters sale that were this cross of black angus x lowline. Impressive offering.

I know it's happening as I have had the occasional call for this cross in recent years. Lazy G- love your stuff, thanks for posting photos.

 

[Mill Iron A]

Thanks for the replies, not sure that it got me any farther though. Not against looking at red devons. Maybe just need another moderate breed to make maternal females. All mentioned would be good. Think I will just keep to the pure reds and chars for now but def will be on the hunt.

 

[LazyGLowlines]

Thanks for the kind words Sue! Just thought I would post one last picture from this years Red Angus show in Iowa- GMRR Valentine 106C was Reserve Champion Foundation female. Sired by LGL Bluey (Red Lowline) out of SAR Roxie 904W (Red Angus)

 

[RyanChandler]

I'm wondering if half blood daughters of one of these small breeds bred to "average" sized angus cattle with the resulting cross being that elusive 1100 pound cow. Would these females be able to calve a moderate calving ease charolais embryo calf?

I do think you're on the right track as far as wanting to add another (singular) breed to your Red Angus to develop your recips.  Despite what the con artist salesman tell you, the maternal heterosis of the f1 female is unmatched.  With as much time/money as you will have invested in the ET process, it only makes since to rid any and all inefficiencies you can by taking advantage of this phenomenon.

To touch on what librarian said, which I absolutely agree with,  there is no point injecting more growth -via the sire- than what your cows can provide (milk) for. It is a waste to assume more risk (the inherent bw risk associated with growthier cattle) than you have the potential to be compensated for.  Applying this to the recips scenario, milk yield is likely the single largest factor in terms of ET calf performance.  In traditional beef cattle production, we have to settle for more of a middle of the road (close to center on the terminal vs maternal pendulum) approach to cow selection, as the cow's genetics are at play in the resulting offspring as well.  While a far right(maternal) of center cow would certainly offer a higher level of maternal quality, we're forced to compromise as we can't avoid the antagonisms associated with the higher level of maternal influence being transmitted through to the resulting calf- which inevitably results in reduced terminal performance. 

BUT

With surrogates, we should no longer have this concern.  The terminal quality of the recip has no application. This component that we had to otherwise keep in check with traditional production, now becomes completely irrelevant.  Here, we can reap the benefits of moving right of center without having to accept the antagonisms. 

With that said, I think you ought to give the idea of using Jersey as the other component to your f1 recip a good bit of consideration.  These are cattle that are highly fertile, moderate in size, have exceptional weight adjusted pelvic capacity, and, short of Holsteins, are as good of milkers as they come- both in terms of quantity and quality.  Additionally, the red angus component should provide more than enough hardiness to offset any real or perceived shortcoming with the cross allowing you to arrive at an animal, IMO, as perfectly suited for the task as possible. 

My apologies on not understanding there was a large difference between Galloway and Lowlines.

With 1000lbers in both breeds (and in all breeds), I'm wondering which is the apple, which is the orange 

 

[HAB]

My apologies on not understanding there was a large difference between Galloway and Lowlines.

With 1000lbers in both breeds (and in all breeds), I'm wondering which is the apple, which is the orange 
[/quote]

Very true X Bar.

My statement was more towards the fact that some people compare Galloways with Mini cattle or Dexters ( I realize good Lowline cattle should not be categorized there either as they are more functional.)

If the Galloways people are seeing are that small, they are not GOOD GALLOWAYS, in my opinion.

Harley Blegen