A2A2 milk.

[cbcr]

Also it seems that breeds of cattle that are better suited for grass finishing carry this A2A2 gene.

If this is the quote that are are referring to, you will also note that I have posted that the ONLY way to know if the A2 gene is present is thru testing.

It seems that as I have review this that from the dairy side, it is mentioned that cows with A2 may not give quite as much milk, but they have better components.  From the beef side of the equation as I mentioned the Leptin may have to do with the amount of milk. 

I haven't been able to find any dairy low density or high density genomic test that includes the Leptin test.  This could be interesting to see if there is a higher level of Leptin in the higher milk bulls.

 

[RyanChandler]

xbar explain your a2a2a being poor milkers. I might throw this out there. Buffalo in the USA........the bison bison anyway......I was told milk very little volume.......but high butterfat milk? Apparently this has worked in nature for tens of thousands of years. If the a2a2 deal worked similarly.......you would have a more effecient process in delivering milk.....developed through.....(wait) natural selection. A cow that produces a bathtub volume of milk every day might not be the most effiecient way to do things.

Nature operates on minimums: the least they can get by with.  The comparison has no standing when talking about domesticated cattle where the pursuit is optimums. 

 

[aj]

Well put x-bar. I think the price of corn drives everything in the beef industry. If there is cheap corn supplements are cheap.  If corn is high priced........feedstuffs are high priced because the two are chasing acres. There is also an effort by the socialist underwater baskets weavers to stop corn for cattle consumption. This could be a factor down the road. Had to get politics in the mix....grin.

 

[librarian]

So,in effect,the low input "Angus Underworld" has been phenotypically selecting for lines that are true Angus, without Holstein or Friesian blood. Look at Deboo and those guys, they use old Angus genetics. Probably the Shoshone Yellow line is A2A2. The thick milk probably jump starts calves for a tough environment, so weaning weights are good. Yearling weights maybe not so good. Maybe test some old Canadian Shorthorns from hold out long winter herds, maybe you already have it from Bonanza.

 

[librarian]

I have been washing windows and thinking about this. I think O got the yearling weight thing wrong. If birth weight was low and the calf gets the wild type milk, rate of gain will be good. The wild calf would be self weaned, probably after getting protein all winter thru milk. Not a lot of milk, just some. In a survival strategy like this, it's about  the cow surviving to raise another calf. In our context I guess the weaning weight might be pretty moderate on A2 milk, but the relative yearling weight could be better and the finish condition might be more quickly achieved, given smaller size. Same old trade off.

 

[aj]

I was told the a2a2 milk was the original condition of the original native cow. Then mutations occured to a different condition. Don't know if that could possibly be right or not.

 

[RyanChandler]

If the A2 milk is in fact more nutritious, would it be logical to assume that more energy is expensed in the production of 1 gallon of A2 versus 1 gallon of A1?

 

[librarian]

Per unit, that makes sense, but it takes fewer A2 units to supply the same amount of energy. In a cartoon version one cow has lots of  A1 mutated milk that she can pump into a calf or a milk pail as long as she has a surplus of resources. Artificial selection for overconsumption. My neighbor has some real milky Angus and they calve in February. If it gets super cold the calves gorge on milk and get scours. Is that a form of indigestion? Would calves getting A2 milk be less prone to need to gluttonize?

 

[cbcr]

As I have posted before, you cannot tell by visual if a cow has the A2 gene or not.  From the dairy side of the issue cows that are positive for A2A2 gene don't require additional nutrition for milk production.  This same would also hold true for cows that have higher butterfat.  On the other hand a cow that is higher in milk production would have a higher nutritional need.  It used to be (if memory serves me correctly) that basically a cow needed 1 pound of feed for every three pounds of milk produced.

The difference between A1 and A2 proteins is subtle: They are different forms of beta-casein, a part of the curds (i.e., milk solids) that make up about 30 percent of the protein content in milk. The A2 variety of beta-casein mutated into the A1 version several thousand years ago in some European dairy herds. Two genes code for beta-casein, so modern cows can either be purely A2, A1/A2 hybrids, or purely A1. Milk from goats and humans contains only the A2 beta-casein, but not everyone likes the flavor of goat milk, which also contains comparatively less vitamin B-12—a nutrient essential for creating red blood cells.

Some breeds seem to have a higher percentage of animals that are A2A2, but again, breeding animals need to be tested.  From some of the information we have been able to find, it would take about 10 years to change a herd from A1A1 to an A2A2 herd.

Is this A2 trend just a fad or does it have merit?  From the science side the A1A1 has been linked to contribute to Type 1 diabetes, Heart conditions, and other health issues.

Again, like we have posted before, there has not been sufficient studies done concerning the A2A2 in regard to beef production such as the milk produced by the cow for her calf or if it has any effect on the meat.

So, now if we look at the situation, which side of the fence would you rather be on? Would you rather be proactive by being selective in the genetics you use, or would you rather wait until the benefit might be proven?

There are other genes related to the milk that can have a bearing on how well an animal performs.

 

[GoWyo]

When it gets real cold, calves don't get up as often and nurse.  When they do get up they over do it and get scours and seems to promote Type C.

My kid has a moderate sized Maine cow that appears to be a moderate milker.  However, I have knife cut 3 of her bull calves and they all had as much cod fat as they did testicle as 2 month old calves and they are always fat little calves all the way to weaning.  Also, the other calves try to steal off her.  I have come to the conclusion that if I was to turn one of our cows into a milk cow to get a little cream for my coffee it would be this cow.  She must milk really high butterfat.

 

[aj]

I don't know if a2a2 is a stronger milk in beef cattle.......or just a more acceptable better received milk. If there are humans that have trouble with a1 milk......could it be there are lines of cattle........baby calves that genetically have problems with the a1 milk. Milk epds could be reflecting something other than Milk.......if there is a calf on the cow that is the equivilent of "lactose intolerant".

 

[GoWyo]

She would normally get shipped for raising a dink calf, so should be selecting against lactose intolerant calves in general.

 

[aj]

Excellent point......but if the cow wasn't lactose intolerant.......and the calf got it from the sire......you would be making a inacurate cull decision. Maybe the smaller calf will be kept for a bull cause he fits someone's frame score selection criteria.......and the calf......bull.....goes on and sires calves.

 

[librarian]

With all due respect to the scientific community, I believe that once a pattern has been identified, close observation can sort out most of what genetic testing predicts. The accuracy of the tests varies. Perhaps there is no way of telling if a cow is A2 by looking at the cow alone, but if one has the time to closely observe cow, calf and environment, a producer can make an educated guess. Genetic testing can exponentially increase the learning curve. This phenomena seems related to metabolism to me and making energy readily available. I would call it marbled milk.

 

[r.n.reed]

With all due respect to the scientific community, I believe that once a pattern has been identified, close observation can sort out most of what genetic testing predicts. The accuracy of the tests varies. Perhaps there is no way of telling if a cow is A2 by looking at the cow alone, but if one has the time to closely observe cow, calf and environment, a producer can make an educated guess. Genetic testing can exponentially increase the learning curve. This phenomena seems related to metabolism to me and making energy readily available. I would call it marbled milk.

Multi generational sorting and building a reliable pedigree is in my opinion the best way to build a predictable product.There could be a host of other factors DNA related besides milk type that come together to make that optimum performing individual.Maybe the milk type is just an indicator that those other factors are present.
Librarian,I finally have a picture of one of those heifers you asked about in another topic.This pair is a result of 40 plus years of seeking the optimum.The mama is a first calf heifer that calved at 24 mo.3 days by Frontline.Her Calf is 164 days old in this picture and is sired by Double Brute also a son of Frontline.This pair ran on some pretty rough dried out timber pasture until 2 1/2 weeks ago when they were brought home and put on better grass.The calves have had access to a creep for the last week in preparation for weaning.The calf's reg# is4207660 if someone  is interested in seeing what a linebred pedigree looks like.Point of interest,every maternal line in the 3rd generation of the calf's pedigree goes back to my 2 foundation cows,Helianthus 44th and Meadowbrook Polly 8th.

 

[WalnutCrest]

As an aside, I'm continuing my conversations with Quantum Genetix and with Igenity to see if either/both can do all of the tests I'm looking to have done ... and at what cost.

I'll let the group know what I find out.

 

[cbcr]

What we have found out so far is that Igenity has most of the test, we have been trying to make sure as to what is available for sure.  I have seen where they have a Leptin-L test, our rep is checking to see if it is still available.

What we are trying to get is the A2 test, Kappa Casein, Beta Casein, Beta Lactoglobulin, and Leptin-L.

It appears that these test are not breed specific.  As soon as we can find out more details we will post it.

 

[librarian]

Thanks for posting the picture. A good illustration of deliberate breeding. Moderate heifer raising a fat calf on a modest udder. Even if the calf seems to have most of the milk on her face. These are the ones that go back to Weston Surprise I think. Those generations of breeding include human generations of
attention. Tests are great, I'm just always trying to learn what to see.

 

[cbcr]

As an update, we have been able to get a dairy test that includes the Kappa Casein, Beta Casein, Beta Lactoglobulin, Leptin-L.  The A2 test will be an add-on.  We hope to have pricing information in the next couple of days.

Most of these test are for dairy cattle, but from some research and reading, they also have merit for beef cattle.  We are working to be able to use these test for beef producers.

I apologize for it taking longer to get this information than I had expected.  When you work with an organization with different offices and divisions and the corporate structure it takes time.  But we have made progress.

We will keep you posted.

 

[WalnutCrest]

CBCR ... who is doing your testing?