ABS Simmentals

[Bawndoh]

Club King is not an ABS bull, and I really can't say from the picture that I like his front end. As for being later maturing, I am not sure I see that as a real problem. Ali's are what I consider later maturing, and from what I have seen they develop well. If it takes as much as a year, that is not a problem, as few are slaughter ready at a year or less anyway. I still have not ordered the semen, but it may be Ranch Hand. Thanks for all of the input. It helps.

I realize his is not an ABS bull. I just figured I would suggest a good bull!  I have seen Club King myself, and don't see a problem with his front end at all.  He actually has quite a bit of extension.  What don't you like?  The second photo of him is taken a bit from the rear, which makes that shoulder bone pop out in front of him a bit, making him look stouter in a photo, but also, as a result, making him look coarser.  He is not a coarse shouldered bull

 

[DakotaCow]

Let me be realy honest. How many udders have you seen? For a first calf heifer that is an excellent udder. Small teats and tight bag firm. I have three generations of these females the oldest being over 12 and they all have nice tight udders and do not sag. Show me what you think an ideal udder is. So how do you figure its a structural mess. I take offense to your post. If you are going to criticize something then at least back it up with some sort of logic.

Well, I haven't kept count.  Didn't really think I ever needed to.  I would easily say I have seen tens of thousands though.  
I have attached a picture of Gus's dam.  I actually think this is a near perfect udder.  Flawless for udder attachment.  Perfect teat size, level made, and has even quarters.  Same with the RA cow pictured.  I spent a lot of time in judging circuits, both in 4-H as a youngster, and while in College.  I've won a few dairy championships in my day too.  That cows udder is unlevel, and the front is higher and wider than the rear, she has a weak suspensory ligament, the teats are already pointing outwards, instead of straight down or inwards.  There is poor fore attachment, and it it appears each quarter is already quite distinct, making the teats almost triangular shaped.  
But you are right about it tight, and firm, and that is pretty much all that matters these days
[/quote]


I would have to agree with Bawndoh on this one.

 

[OH Breeder]

Let me be realy honest. How many udders have you seen? For a first calf heifer that is an excellent udder. Small teats and tight bag firm. I have three generations of these females the oldest being over 12 and they all have nice tight udders and do not sag. Show me what you think an ideal udder is. So how do you figure its a structural mess. I take offense to your post. If you are going to criticize something then at least back it up with some sort of logic.

Well, I haven't kept count. Didn't really think I ever needed to.  I would easily say I have seen tens of thousands though.  
I have attached a picture of Gus's dam.  I actually think this is a near perfect udder. Flawless for udder attachment. Perfect teat size, level made, and has even quarters. Same with the RA cow pictured.  I spent a lot of time in judging circuits, both in 4-H as a youngster, and while in College. I've won a few dairy championships in my day too. That cows udder is unlovely, and the front is higher and wider than the rear, she has a weak suspense ligament, the teats are already pointing outwards, instead of straight down or inwards. There is poor fore attachment, and it it appears each quarter is already quite distinct, making the teats almost triangular shaped.  
But you are right about it tight, and firm, and that is pretty much all that matters these days
[/quote]

I would bet if you look a little closer at the picture you would see a calf in the picture and note she is a first calf heifer. The calf ate off of the front quarter and had not gottent to the back hence its "unlevel". Pointing straight out. Well if you had just dropped a calf an hour ago your teats might point out a bit when engorged with milk. Either of the ladies in your picture JUST CALVE and JUST NURSE. I don't think so. Your evaluation shows me you do not pay attention to the DETAILS . Seem pretty quick to make a judgement. When the young gal is nursed down completely on all four she doesn't look any different than your first picture. As I said, I have three generations of females in my herd and not one has a sag in their udder. Her grandmother looks like a first calf heifer everytime. I would hope the udder is tight and firm and not swinging like a Holstein. If you had so much experience you would have listened to the whole story and looked deeper before making a quick judgement.

 

[Bawndoh]

I did read the "DETAILS". 
Doesn't matter to me if they are engorged or not, a good udder keeps a good shape. 
Now don't get all mad at me and ask me how many cows I have calved or own or whatever now.  I never claimed to have a cow with a perfect udder myself, at any point.  Just saw that you were bragging, and felt like it was necessary to bring some honesty in this world.  I see that everyone seems afraid of it these days.  If some 17 year old kid on here was braggin that he had this "spectacular" clubby bull to promote, and he was tight made, with horrible structure, and a 120lb BW, I am sure you would want to chime in as well.

 

[kanshow]

I'm going to have to go with OH Breeder on this..    That is a nice bag.    The teats are small and it is up there tight.  I bet if he'd take another picture of it after the calf is about a week old, there would be no difference in that & what you have pictured.      I also like the fact that the teats are black on the heifer. 

Our best uddered cows are our Dream On daughters & granddaughters.   

The Club Kings ought to make cows based on the herd he comes from.   

 

[R1Livestock]

Well, I haven't kept count.  Didn't really think I ever needed to.  I would easily say I have seen tens of thousands though.  
I have attached a picture of Gus's dam.  I actually think this is a near perfect udder.  Flawless for udder attachment.  Perfect teat size, level made, and has even quarters.  Same with the RA cow pictured.  I spent a lot of time in judging circuits, both in 4-H as a youngster, and while in College.  I've won a few dairy championships in my day too.  That cows udder is unlevel, and the front is higher and wider than the rear, she has a weak suspensory ligament, the teats are already pointing outwards, instead of straight down or inwards.  There is poor fore attachment, and it it appears each quarter is already quite distinct, making the teats almost triangular shaped.  
But you are right about it tight, and firm, and that is pretty much all that matters these days

When did we start raising dairy animals and judging them as such?  A very old, wise herdsman once told me that when you start breeding beef animals to look and function like dairy animals, you start having the problems of dairy animals.  OH breeder's heifer has a good udder, and you know it.  We can all cruise and find pictures of "ideal types" to show off and compare to, but from a functionalist point of an udder that is above average in dimension, structure, and functionality, I would take a herd with udders like hers all day long and feel a lot of other people would trade in many of their first calf heifers for this one.

 

[Freddy]

I definitely agreee with R1 ON THIS, I had an old veterinarian say the same thing , and if you want a good example go look at those 28+ (milk )cows in the Angus breed , and this also causes 3-4 years productivity that we use to have ..

 

[Bawndoh]

I'm not judging her as a dairy animal.  I was using proper terms.  Tight bag doesn't mean much to me.  Neither does a swinging utter <rock>.
Sorry for using real terminology guys.
I have raised RA and RA cross cows for many years.  Around our place, there are not a lot of 12 year old cows that look 12.  Most produce to 14 or 16+ and die at the place.  
Kanshow, OH Breeder asked me to show a picture of a good udder, so I did.  Don't act like a smart a$$.

 

[OH Breeder]

I did read the "DETAILS".  
Doesn't matter to me if they are engorged or not, a good udder keeps a good shape.  
Now don't get all mad at me and ask me how many cows I have calved or own or whatever now.  I never claimed to have a cow with a perfect udder myself, at any point.  Just saw that you were bragging, and felt like it was necessary to bring some honesty in this world.  I see that everyone seems afraid of it these days.  If some 17 year old kid on here was braggin that he had this "spectacular" clubby bull to promote, and he was tight made, with horrible structure, and a 120lb BW, I am sure you would want to chime in as well.

FIRST- if you read my post you would know RARELY would I ever tear someone down without justifying my point. You obviously see things different. I AM BRAGGIN which is something else I RARELY do. I know what I have because I have raised three generations of these females and they all have done a super job for me. I don't care how many cow's you raise or what you raise. Your OPINION. My opinion is its a GREAT udder on first calf heifer and i wish all my heifers had udders JUST like her. Usually I am honest but I have a little tact.

Attached you will find her dam a 12 plus year old cow. Look at her udder. Picture one and two. They don't get any more level than that.
The other two pictures are the udder you found so horrible. When nursed down it is level and tight to the body.

What part of Kanshow's statement was "smart ass"?

Thanks for your honest opinion I just don't agree with it..

 

[Bawndoh]

I don't see much udder from those pictures, just a back leg in the way.  I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to prove by posting pictures of your 12 year old cow anyways.  She is a good looking, thick, long, attractive cow, BTW, and seems to have a calf that mirrors her look.  In the last image...of your 2 year old...I still think the udder looks exactly the same as the first photo you posted.  My opinion stands.

 

[OH Breeder]

I don't see much udder from those pictures, just a back leg in the way.  I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to prove by posting pictures of your 12 year old cow anyways.  She is a good looking, thick, long, attractive cow, BTW, and seems to have a calf that mirrors her look.  In the last image...of your 2 year old...I still think the udder looks exactly the same as the first photo you posted.  My opinion stands.

EXACTLY...you can't see anything because she has a nice tight udder. If you click on the picture and blow it up you can see. My opinion stands as well.

I figure we all raise what works for us that is what makes this so much fun. THE 12 year old cow is her mother. I know what I can look forward to by looking at her (2 yr old) dam.

 

[Bawndoh]

I don't see anything because her leg is in the way.  For the umpteenth time, a tight udder isn't necessarily a good udder.  Silly people..... :
I know the picture is of her mother, but it proves nothing to me about what is or is not a good udder.
I dont care if I hijacked this thread.  I don't care that I have had to repeat myself twelve times, I am not letting this post go to $hit.

 

[kanshow]

OH breeder, that's a nice cow with a good udder.    The fact that it is NOT the first thing you see when you look at the cow is a plus IMO.   

Bawndoh,  What part of my post are you referring to?     

I'm going to have to go with OH Breeder on this..    That is a nice bagThe teats are small and it is up there tight. .

  All true.     

  I bet if he'd take another picture of it after the calf is about a week old, there would be no difference in that & what you have pictured. 

  If you've seen so many udders, you'd know they are at their worst right just after calving.  That udder looks fantastic for a heifer that has just calved. 

    I also like the fact that the teats are black on the heifer. 

Sunburn. 

Our best uddered cows are our Dream On daughters & granddaughters. 

they are. 

The Club Kings ought to make cows based on the herd he comes from.   

I sure hope you weren't referring to this statement.  This bull comes from a solid herd that has been in the breed since at least the 70's.    We've used their bulls for years and the daughters go on to produce.  The cows have longevity and their udders stay good.

 

[shortyisqueen]

In reading the posts here at Steerplanet, I have realized…we will never better the beef industry by openly criticizing what we think other people are doing wrong or overlooking – especially with a 'holier than thou' attitude.  We can simply set the bar high for ourselves and hope that other people are encouraged to follow.

OH Breeder was simply giving a sample of what the bull had done in his herd – which I would find useful if I was the original poster. Not only is it unnecessary to be critical of a female that was posted for observation purposes, it also seems a bit disrespectful to single out someone else's animal to dissect udder quality. I wouldn't walk up to someone at a show just to tell them the animal they were proudly showing was bad – would you? If the beef industry needs to be taught an honest lesson on udder quality, post an anonymous pic and start a new topic that promotes discussion rather than bashing.

That being said, its no mean feat to make a long, balanced fore-udder attachment with a bucket of barley. Cows with adequate udders filled up with fat pass for cows with great udders at shows every fall. Nevermind that without the bucket of barley the calf was eating, the pair would never make it to the ring.

If the cow's calf doesn't needs assistance nursing the first time, the cow raises the calf to an acceptable weaning weight, and the cow's udder has enough longevity that she has a good, long life in your herd, the rest is gravy.

 

[Bawndoh]

OH breeder, that's a nice cow with a good udder.    The fact that it is NOT the first thing you see when you look at the cow is a plus IMO.     

Bawndoh,  What part of my post are you referring to?     

I'm going to have to go with OH Breeder on this..    That is a nice bagThe teats are small and it is up there tight. .

   All true.     

  I bet if he'd take another picture of it after the calf is about a week old, there would be no difference in that & what you have pictured. 

  If you've seen so many udders, you'd know they are at their worst right just after calving.  That udder looks fantastic for a heifer that has just calved. 

    I also like the fact that the teats are black on the heifer. 

Sunburn. 

Our best uddered cows are our Dream On daughters & granddaughters. 

they are. 

The Club Kings ought to make cows based on the herd he comes from.   

I sure hope you weren't referring to this statement.  This bull comes from a solid herd that has been in the breed since at least the 70's.    We've used their bulls for years and the daughters go on to produce.   The cows have longevity and their udders stay good.

Sorry, it was R1Livestock with the smart comment.  Said "we can all go cruise around and find pictures of ideal udders".  Well...I did that because OH Breeder asked me to.

 

[Bawndoh]

You may wonder why I am going to go here, but I am.  I graduated with a kid who was definitely NOT the smartest kid in the grade.  He was a year older than us all, yet spent his entire school life with a teachers assistant, or in the special education class.  He comes from a rather underprivileged farm family and happenned to be one of the kindest kids I grew up with.  Once he graduated, he went straight to the oil rigs.  He can barely make it past the lowest worker on the payscale, but he is the most determind S.O.B. around.  This was BIIIGG money that he was making...and he was not used to that.  Either way, he set out on a plan.  He was going to be a rig manager, and owner.  He started spending his earnings quickly.  He bought a new truck, bought a few rigs, paid some bozo $10,000 for a fancy website, started designating himself as a manager, and other past coworkers as his various necessary employees.  Problem is...this whole setup was bogus.  None of these designated workers work for him.  They have other jobs with other rigs.  He bought oil rigs from Texas...which don't exactly stand the test of time in Canadian winters, and the guy that "helped" him with his website, and start up screwed him out of several thousand more dollars. 
The problem is...now he is probably going to have to go bankrupt.  Awe....poor kid.  The thing is, people told him this was ridiculous.  They told him...this is harder than it looks, and much more difficult.  They advised him, and tried to get it through his thick determined head that this was not a real world scenario in his mind...but he didn't listen. 
This goes back to the statement I made about a kid with a "good bull".  If some 17 year old kid worked hard to promote his 120lb BW, structural mess of an ugly bull, and spent $10,000 promoting him thinking he is the next Heatwave...that you would want to tell the kid " something is not right here."
Shortyisqueen, and OH Breeder, you think I am on some personal attack here.  Like I am after  OH's whole cowherd, and his/her life too.  I am NOT, and that is what you cannot figure out.  That udder is his/her idea of near perfect, and I am disagreeing and explaining myself.  I though forums were for discussing things, not playing nicey nice, and roses and fairy's all day long.
No, I wouldn't go up to someone at a show and tell them their animal was bad if it was just standing in a stall.  If they had a poor calf, and wondered why they didn't get Grand Champ, well then I would probably say something (like I did here).  Or if they thought their fitting job was superb, and it wasn't, I might tell them that they could definitely do better, and help them in doing so.  I know a lot of things that go on at shows, and nobody tells anybody about them to their face....but they sure don't have a hard time telling their buddies once the whisky bottles come out after 6pm tie-outs and stall cleanup.

 

[OH Breeder]

I don't see anything because her leg is in the way.  For the umpteenth time, a tight udder isn't necessarily a good udder.  Silly people..... :
I know the picture is of her mother, but it proves nothing to me about what is or is not a good udder.
I dont care if I hijacked this thread.  I don't care that I have had to repeat myself twelve times, I am not letting this post go to $hit.

Do you have a herd of your own? Is that the reason you had to search for pictures ? If you had these wonderful udders in your own herd I would suspect you would have used them. You apparently just graduated from college and are full of knowledge. Well I went to college for 10 years and have 3 degrees but that doesn't mean I am any smarter than the next guy. I know some pretty experienced cattle people that don't have more than a 8th grade education and they are very successful. Lots of experienced judges saw this heifer and many commented on the heifers udder attachement and teat placement. So, I think I will take years of experienced cattle people and judges over a 22 year old post college graduate full of themselves. When you personally have been out there making your own breeding decisions and raising a herd of your own then come back and tell me what kind cows work in your herd. We have been at this a little bit more than 22 years.

My post was started for the person who wanted to know about Macho and his maternal abilities. I would use him again and again. Very happy with what he had to add to the mix in our breeding program. He did not sacrifice milk at all. Macho gave us a heifer that we will be able to breed many different ways. I am sorry to the original poster this thread was hijacked in the way it was. Just remember that one bull may work in your program and not work at all in someone elses. It is a matter of trial and error sometimes.

 

[Bawndoh]

I do have a herd of my own.  I was given a cow when I was born, so you can say I have had cattle for YES, almost 23 years!!  Wow, congratulations for guessing my age almost perfectly  (clapping).
Right now I own 9 bred cows.  The youngest is 3, and the oldest is 13 and going real strong.  I don't really go out and snap pictures of my cows.  I don't have a reason to.  They, BTW are an hour away from where I currently live, and I don't get to see them often.  When I do, taking a camera is not my first concern either.  Besides...I never once said anything about my cows having perfect udders....so what does that matter?
I did go to College too.  I went for 2 years, graduated, and went on to basically supply my income by my own self-employment by the time I was 20.  Yes, I am almost 23 now, and I am completely self-employed by 3 or 4 different jobs.  I do custom AI, work as a an area rep for Genex, own my own cowherd, and am a wedding and lifestyle photographer.  Not too bad for "fresh out of College".  My Dad has been dragging me to sales since I was probably 13 or younger to help select bulls for his large purebred and commercial cow/calf operation.  He trusted me to get the job done of processing (150+) newborn calves/year with nothing but a (useless) dog and a quad on 360 acres since I was probably 14.  
I have made my own breeding decisions, and many others, for a while now.  Everyone has been quite thrilled with the results.  Actually last night I had my first calf out of that (cow killer) Salute.  I am thrilled to announce an 88lb heifer calf.  Now...I ought to have been crazy to not take everyones word on here and use Salute anyways!  What a crappy bull....

No doubt about it that Macho has worked for you.  The cows are real attractive, and seem to raise good babies for you.  Maternal abilities come from a lot of factors, and I am sure they are probably great mother cows  An udder does not really have much of an equation in my idea of maternal instincts.  A perfectly good lady can have a full mastectomy, give birth to a baby, and feed it formula.  That doesn't mean she is a bad mother....but gosh..she sure wouldn't do a Wonderbra justice.

 

[chambero]

In my experience, the limiting factor on a female being worth having is (1) will she breed and have a calf and (2) will she give it enough milke to grow.

Everything else is "pole-vaulting over mouse turds" in the words of a favorite uncle of mine.

If a bull will raise those kinds of females, he's doing his job.  There is a whole lot of evidence that Macho does a real good job of that.

Trying to identify udders on heifers that will have problems later on is hard enough to do in person, let alone from a photo - unless there is a massive problem. You can go broke in hurry (or just sell every cow you have) if you go around looking for every tiny imperfection and trying to cull everyone you find.  We have some cows that have run around for years raising big calves every year that fall into the Dolly Parton category.  For my money, an ugly udder isn't a very important problem unless it requires me to physically have to mess with it for some reason or the calf can't suck. 

In general, most Simi influenced cattle I've bee around have very, very few udder problems relative to other breeds.  So, I don't think that should be a differentiating factor when trying to pick Simi bulls.

I don't know much about Ranch Hand other than the people we sell feeder cattle too promote the heck out of him and they don't own him.  His calves flat out perform in the feedlot, so they definitely aren't hard doing in that regard.

 

[kanshow]

Chambero - you hit the nail on the head...    We get the occasional older cow that starts to break down on her bag & it becomes pendulous right after calving.  That is normally not much of a problem, however this winter with all the mud, those were a big pain.  I've identified those females as some to potentially cull.  The calves are now 2-3 months and you cannot easily tell which ones those were at this stage.  I say we'll sell them but if they come in with a calf that indexes say 110  on weaning weight..  do they stay??    Another bad combination is big teats & small weak calves.    I would probably not cull a cow that just had big teats so long as they were managable for a normal new calf to get ahold of.   

I think the RanchHands will have decent  udders.  We have one due any moment now and her udder has started to get pretty engorged.  It's not the prettiest thing but the attachments and teat placement are great.  Time will tell what she does.      I would probably use RH as a calving ease sire again.  The calves do come small, however they take a little longer to really bloom.