AI breeding question?

[red]

My big red cow came into heat Saturday morning. Discharging & all the good stuff. We bred her late Saturday night.
She's back in heat this morning. did the same thing last year. Should we give her a shot of GnRH when we bred her again?

Red

 

[red]

well, we gave her a shot of GnRH after we bred her. Hope it took. Used Money Man so really looking forward to this calf!

Red

 

[DL]

That's what I would have done! Sometimes they don't read the book (or maybe it is a different book, most cows don't have access to SP so they have to wing it) (lol)

 

[mlk32]

Ok, I will sheepishly ask, why the GnRH on the second AI? 

Red, as you know, I had the same thing last week when we bred on a cow on Saturday and the cow, AKA:  Paris Hilton just released from jail, was in a complete heat jumpin' frenzy four days later.

 

[red]

MLK32, I think it realeases the egg but I sure don't want to be wrong on this!

Red

 

[Cowboy]

Hey Red, I thought meybe I could ad some insight to the pretty common occurance during the breeding seasion. There are two or three ways this can happen, two are actually normal and fairly good , the other is not good.

Reason one -- when a cow starts to cycle after she calves, most of them will exibit a heat at or around the 30-35th day post partum, then will suddenly come in again 10 days later. This happens due to the fact that each ovary will try and start it's own cycle, and the cow won't settle inro the normal 21 days until she has cycled at least once on each side. Believe me, if you REALLY watch your cows every year like I have -- it will show up more than not. 

Reason two -- Dominant follicle and fertility. Some cows try very hard to form more than one follicle for each heat. One of these is always dominant, and essentially will counteract the smaller less dominant follicle due to hormone inputs. Some of the most fertile cows -- those with LOTS of normal hormones, will have enough JUICE so to speak to fully mature two follicles and these MAY mature a day or more apart. Some of these cows are the ones that have a set of twins. It happens.

Reason three -- NOT GOOD -- the cow cycles, but is low on energy and also low on hormones due to that or other reasons. Her follicle never gets the needed LH (Leutenizing Hormone) signal to release the egg -- and goes cystic for a time. GNRH is called - Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone -- and is the signal to release the LH needed for ovulation. When given IM (Gnrh) you are essentially telling the cow she needs to ovulate, and releases the LH to do so. If you have a cow who cycles more than once over a few days period, ALWAYS give GNRH the second time when you breed -- YES it does release the egg if used on time. It will also help HOLD the CL longer on these cows we are trying to syncronize with Cidr's, keeping them more in the middle stage of the cycle longer!

Every one confused now??????

Well don't worry -- I have been that way for 30 years, it GROWS on ya after a while -- hehehehehehe!!!!

Terry

 

[red]

Cowboy thank you so much! She seems to do this typicaly so I'm betting it's more the number 2 reason. Her second heat, in 2-3 days is always stronger & lasts longer than the first mini heat.
Really appreciate the comments. I'll make sure MLK32 reads this since she was questioning the use of GnHR.
Your numbro uno in my book!!!

Red

 

[CAB]

  Cowboy, have to ask. Are you saying that if we are AIing on visual heat, that we may improve conception rates by giving a shot of GNRH @ time of insemination, or just use in special situations? We also have talked about the protocal of shooting  a 2nd shot of either lute or GNRH 10-11 days after pulling the cidr and giving the 1st shot of lute or estromate. Just want clarification as to which drug we are using @ 10-11 days. Thanks in advance Cowboy. Brent

P.S. both of the heifers preged open. I will soon set them up, if they don't naturally cycle.

 

[DL]

Brent - Not cowboy and don't play him on TV but there is some evidence that GNRH with AI will increase pregnancy rates - I generally only use it with synch programs but have used it with visual heats (esp as it gets later in the season!). If you want a copy of the CO-synch program for your heifers (time breed but also can do visual heats) let me know....cowboy delighted to know you are around, dl

 

[CAB]

  DL, I am using co synch cidr program, but there are so many different protocals any more that it is getting a bit hard and confusing, so I just wanted clarification as to what drug to use @ that 10-11 day last ditch effort to get them done. I probably @ that point, would just wait another 10-11 days & observe.
  I do breed off visual standing heat after pulling the cidr & shooting with lute, but am curious to know if when I do go ahead and inseminate, if a 2nd shot of GNRH would improve conception rates. I have been very happy with past results, but am always up for better. Thanks, DL. Brent

 

[Cowboy]

Brent -- glad to hear all is well.

As far as the shot thing goes -- I personally do not give another shot of Gnrh at breeding -- but I am extremely diligent on the timing of A-I thing. Doesn't matter to me if it is 2 in the morning, our cows WILL have time to get over it and be ready to breed. The injection of Gnrh at breeding will somewhat overcome a possibility of being too early -- and help her ovulate before the semen dies of old age (Ich -- too close to home there anymore!!)

I can only remember one time using it here, I was forced to breed one of my cows a few hours too soon, and had to leave fora road trip. That was the ONLY repeat I had that year, go figure -- it was one of the 101 units I used in 10 years -- so for me, it didn't work out. Again, timing is everything, no matter how good the semen is -- the egg HAS to be there before it can be fertilized!

If you must use a second shot at the 11 day time frame due to no response, it would be the Prostoglandin (Lutelyse or Estrumate) .

I never give Gnrh at a routine breeding unless there are some time issues as mentioned. Keep in mind however, that this is all I do besides eat and breath -- hehehehehe! It may work out very well in a larger herd than mine, more numbers means better data!

Good luck to all -- Terry

PS -- Hey there DL -- how many times do we have to play TAG before we are to give up and throw in the towel ??

 

[CAB]

  Thanks Terry. Don't know if I would go with the ALLS well, but close enough, considering who it's for. I'll hope for good response and reads and just wait on mother nature after that for awhile, if no response after a period of time, I'll make a semi-educated decision when we get that far. I've never had very good luck with that 2nd shot of lute,estrumate,that's why I was asking if there was evidence that the GNRH @ that time was showing better results although I know the drugs do different things, the thing that has gotten me wondering is the protocal in the back of the ABS sire directory saying to use GNRH @ the 10-11 day after pulling the cidr. Is that a miss print? Does anyone know for sure whether it is? Thank you in advance for your input. Brent

 

[DL]

CAB - If I understand your question right and if I am looking at the same ABS catalog - I don't see where they say to give GNRH 10 to 11 days after pulling the CIDR.

I always give the 2nd shot of GNRH when I use the CO-Synch + CIDR program - I could probably dig up an article from somewhere but if memory serves me right it improves conception (don't remember by how much). As Cowboy says it is useful if your "timing" isn't perfect and with time breeding your timing may not always be perfect I would give the second shot of GNRH.

Most of these protocols have been tested just as presented so to wiggle them around sort of invites trouble.

In regards to a second shot if you don't see them in heat - I also agree with Cowboy (imagine that!) that you would want to use a prostaglandin BUT not if you bred them on time

So it is sort of 6 of one half dozen of another - if you use the protocol and time breed them you have a good chance of getting them pregnant even if you don't see a heat; but if you don't time breed them then you have no chance of getting them bred and you might get a "better heat " with lutalyse 10 days later

Note - the time breeding time is different for heifers and cows

Hopefully this helps but if not - let us know
dl

Cowboy - never throw in the towel!

 

[CAB]

  DL, ABS spring of 2007 edition says for both beef & heifer protocal, @ 10 days after pulling the cidr and shooting with lute, to shoot with GnRH & inseminate.That is for all non responders of coarse. I am asking if anyone knows if this is a typo or has the protocal changed. I personally do not time breed per say in my own herd. I do time breed for some others that may not be quite as strong of heat detectors as I would feel comfortable relying on. If I'm TAI breeding,I always use the 2nd shot of GnRH. Cows, 60 hrs + or - 6 hrs, heifers, 54 hrs, + or - 2 hrs.
  Again, if someone knows for sure whether this is an appropriate protocal, in the ABS spring 2007 edition, or not, please inform us, as I do not want to see people making a mistake because of wrong information. Thanks. Brent

 

[DL]

OK - if I have my brain in gear I think (maybe ) I see your confusion -I am looking at pg 104 bottom left "Fixed time AI"  - if you are referring to the picture with GNRH at day 0, cidr from 0 to 7, pg at day 7 and then GNRH & AI at day 10 that is not 10 days after pulling the CIDR it is basically day 10 from the start of the protocol.

Ten days after pulling the CIDR and giving Lutalyse to give GNRH and breed would be a waste.

If I missed something here - or you are on a different page let me know...I'll try again!

 

[Cowboy]

Hey Brent, I as well can see yor confusion. I do not have acatolog in my hands, but if it did say what yo wrote then it is not totally correct as D said.

I my very humble opinion -- here is what it should say and mean.

Day -0- -- Insert Cidr and give Gnrh
Day -7- -- Pull Cidr and give Prostoglandin (Lut or Estrumate)

Most cows and hfrs that are going to cycle will do so in about 48-60 hours.

If Time breeding -- breed them at about 60 hours or so fo cows and give Gnrh again.

If on the other hand -- you did notice a few NOT hav a heat, and do NOT time breed -- here is what yo do.

On day 10-11 from REMOVAL of Cidr (When you gave the first shot of Lut) yo would then reinject another Prostoglandin shot (Lut or Estrumate) and wait the norml time frame for any activity. If again yo do not see a heat -- then breed them on a time basis as described and give them GNRH at the time of breeding. In this case, Gnrh "WIll" improve yor results, by how much -- WHO THE HECK KNOWS -- hehehe!!!

That's the deal on a hot dog stick -- and if the book says it differently, then they need a new computer guy!!!

DL -- I am officially OUT of towels, so yo did make the cut -- no what do we do????? I am so glad and look up - I saved your butt! ;D

Terry  (clapping)

 

[Cowboy]

A HUGE PPPPP-SSSSS

For some odd and confusing reason on my last post above -- my good old trusty and now dirty KEY BOARD failed to place a few key letters on several words. Even though I proofed it -- it still failed to type it in.

Every one please fill in the blanks -- one of them being where I mention having heats -- there is an entire word missing -- it is "NOT".

yo was to be YOU etc. !!!! The final kick in the rear to an already less than happy day!!!

Humbled in Nebraska !

 

[CAB]

  Hey guys, I finally have my head put on and and screwed it down a couple of notches tighter. The protocal makes sense to me this morning, because the 2nd shot of GnRH is given 10 days after incertion of the cidr, NOT 10 days  AFTER PULLING THE CIDR. I hope I haven't confused anyone with my stupidity.

 

[red]

Brent- we all have those brain fart moments!!!

Red  ))

 

[DL]

  Hey guys, I finally have my head put on and and screwed it down a couple of notches tighter. The protocal makes sense to me this morning, because the 2nd shot of GnRH is given 10 days after incertion of the cidr, NOT 10 days  AFTER PULLING THE CIDR. I hope I haven't confused anyone with my stupidity.

No problem - glad we finally figured it out!