AI vs Not

[Taylor B]

So i recently began to discuss with people what they prefer, and why. AI vs just renting a bull and putting it out. Please give me some feedback. Thanks

 

[twistedhshowstock]

The main reason for AI over just running a bull live cover is genetic diversity and the availability of superior genetics more easily.  If you run a bull with your cows and dont do anything else then you have less genetic diversity in that calf crop.  Also, unless all of your cows are pretty much identical, then it will be difficult to find a single bull that works on all of them.  I am not speaking for everyone, but personally I have yet to see a bull that clicked with every female he was bred to.  By using AI and having multiple bulls in the tank, I am able to focus more on finding a bull that feeds the need of each individual female.

 

[frostback]

AI all the way. My husband and I could never agree on ONE bull to use on all(his and mine) of our cows. AIing is saving our marriage.

 

[goodnight]

I have been a big proponent of timed AI since the old syncromate-b days. The main reason for it is that if you set up a mass, timed AI, wait a week and then turn the bull out for 60 days, you give a cow four chances to get bred in a roughly 60 day breeding season. With today's CIDR based protocols, you have a really good chance of getting most, in not all, of those cows on the AI breeding or the next cycle. That will move those calves to the front of the calving cycle and will add 2-3 pounds per day/per calf. The better genetics are just gravy compared to getting the cow bred early. Reproduction is still, and will always be, the most important trait in any cow/calf enterprise, whether it be commercial, seedstock, club calf, hobby, or what have you.

 

[DLD]

I can't argue with all the reasons already given for AI'ing, but there are some valid reasons for leasing a bull for natural service - particularly if you're talking about leasing an AI sire.  AI is time consuming and fairly labor intensive - if you don't have much time and/or help, or facilities,  or if you're not confident in your AI skills, leasing could be a better way to go.  I realize that not every bull works on every cow, but I also know that most of us will have put together a group of cows that are at least somewhat phenotypically and genetically similiar, and I truly believe that the right one bull will produce as many good calves in most herds as having a few cows bred to several different bulls.  Of course, it costs something to lease the good bulls, and you have to get them spoken for early, but it really can be a good option for some people.

 

[cowman 52]

Goal is the deal,  just want calves to sell, turn out a bull, want to improve your cattle, if you are like me buying a bull that will do that is economically unavailable. So you choice is made.
Back home neighbors would lean the fence over rather than buy a bull, here they still go to the sale barn and buy the first set of testicles that walk in.

 

[DLD]

Maybe I read too much into the original question.  Since this is mostly a show cattle forum, and most of you that are talking about AI seem to be assuming they're breeding for show calves (even though they didn't say that), the first thing that came to my mind when they said "renting a bull" was that they were talking about renting a high quality sire, not just a cow freshener. Outfits like Lautner and Trausch (and many other's) routinely lease out many of those same bulls that they sell semen on.  That was the sort of bull lease I was thinking about.

 

[ZNT]

According to this post by Jeff on Cattle.com, people do not run clean-up bulls any more in the midwest.  I guess it's a good thing they do not do DNA parent verification on steers.  (lol)

60,000 Individual Lots Counted
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2012 We recently passed up the 60,000 lots mark in our database of online sale results.

After looking at just the sale data for this fall, I've come to realize that not a single person in the mid-west has ever sold a show steer out of a clean up bull.

By Jeff

 

[Gargan]

According to this post by Jeff on Cattle.com, people do not run clean-up bulls any more in the midwest.  I guess it's a good thing they do not do DNA parent verification on steers.   (lol)

60,000 Individual Lots Counted
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2012 We recently passed up the 60,000 lots mark in our database of online sale results.

After looking at just the sale data for this fall, I've come to realize that not a single person in the mid-west has ever sold a show steer out of a clean up bull.

By Jeff

(lol) very true.

 

[JTM]

We use to AI everything and now we have gone almost exclusively to using bulls. Why? When you have a bull you know what you are getting as far as genetics. You see him perform, keep his flesh, not have foot problems, get cows bred, etc. When you AI you really don't know exactly what you have and you may just have a hyped up little dink.

 

[frostback]

We use to AI everything and now we have gone almost exclusively to using bulls. Why? When you have a bull you know what you are getting as far as genetics. You see him perform, keep his flesh, not have foot problems, get cows bred, etc. When you AI you really don't know exactly what you have and you may just have a hyped up little dink.

I still know what the genetics are behind the bulls I use to AI and I dont use unproven bulls. I have seen or trust someone that has seen calves before using. If just testing bulls I would sure like just a couple AIed then a whole bunch natural bred if he is not going to work. There has to be a first calf out of any bull, AI or natural bred. There are not many places in the US that use or have herd sires anymore. Mostly clean up bulls. If is aint broke dont fix it JTM.

 

[oakview]

I used to AI a lot, but don't much anymore for several reasons.  1)  I don't have as many cows as I used to (I'm not 25 anymore!)  2)  I found that more often than not my better calves were out of my own bulls.  Yes, I did use the AI bulls that appeared to be more proven, although I did use a few young, new AI sires over the years.  3)  My calf crop is much more consistent since they are in essence sired by only 1 or 2 bulls as opposed to 10 or more.  4)  My goals have changed over the years.  If I was trying to raise and sell show steers, then I would by all means AI as many as I could to Heatwave or whatever the hot club calf sire of the day might be.  But I don't do that.  My goal is to have a productive herd of 30-40 cows that I like, that do the job I want them to do, and that I can make some money with, and I want them to all look alike and produce calves that look alike.  I think I'm making very good progress towards that end.  My main herd bull came as an embryo that I implanted in my cow.  I studied the genetics he represented and he turned out the way I wanted him to.  He was raised in my environment so I knew that he could do the job how I handled cattle.  My other herd bull was purchased at side of his dam as a month old calf.  There was some gamble, but he looked the part and had the genetics that I wanted.  So far, he's working out great.  I can't afford a $50,000 bull, but I can afford to purchase embryos or even consider a breeding share in something I might want.  By the way, the last breeding share I purchased worked out okay, but the calves out of my own bull were better and more consistent.  Not every bull I've purchased has worked out.  In fact, the last one I purchased came with the foot defect that he passed on to some calves he sired for some of my friend's cows, so he's gone.  I have no argument with those who use every bull under the sun, but I truly admire those breeders that when I look at their sale catalog, I see many generations of their prefix, particularly on the dam's side.  I know of several breeders that have successful sales and have only 1 or perhaps at most 2 generations.  Either way can work, I just want to continue to build a consistent generation upon a prior consistent generation.  In my situation, I am doing this with my own bulls with very limited AI use.

 

[JTM]

I used to AI a lot, but don't much anymore for several reasons.  1)  I don't have as many cows as I used to (I'm not 25 anymore!)  2)  I found that more often than not my better calves were out of my own bulls.  Yes, I did use the AI bulls that appeared to be more proven, although I did use a few young, new AI sires over the years.  3)  My calf crop is much more consistent since they are in essence sired by only 1 or 2 bulls as opposed to 10 or more.  4)  My goals have changed over the years.  If I was trying to raise and sell show steers, then I would by all means AI as many as I could to Heatwave or whatever the hot club calf sire of the day might be.  But I don't do that.  My goal is to have a productive herd of 30-40 cows that I like, that do the job I want them to do, and that I can make some money with, and I want them to all look alike and produce calves that look alike.  I think I'm making very good progress towards that end.  My main herd bull came as an embryo that I implanted in my cow.  I studied the genetics he represented and he turned out the way I wanted him to.  He was raised in my environment so I knew that he could do the job how I handled cattle.  My other herd bull was purchased at side of his dam as a month old calf.  There was some gamble, but he looked the part and had the genetics that I wanted.  So far, he's working out great.  I can't afford a $50,000 bull, but I can afford to purchase embryos or even consider a breeding share in something I might want.  By the way, the last breeding share I purchased worked out okay, but the calves out of my own bull were better and more consistent.  Not every bull I've purchased has worked out.  In fact, the last one I purchased came with the foot defect that he passed on to some calves he sired for some of my friend's cows, so he's gone.  I have no argument with those who use every bull under the sun, but I truly admire those breeders that when I look at their sale catalog, I see many generations of their prefix, particularly on the dam's side.  I know of several breeders that have successful sales and have only 1 or perhaps at most 2 generations.  Either way can work, I just want to continue to build a consistent generation upon a prior consistent generation.  In my situation, I am doing this with my own bulls with very limited AI use.

Sounds like a winning strategy to me Oakview.
Frostback, in response to your response I would just say that your approach would be the best one if someone was going to use AI most of the time. There can be a lot of inconsistencies in cattle especially in the crossbred club calf AI bulls. I think studying offspring, actually seeing the bull working, and knowing what you want is a great way to go about things.

 

[jalebe]

I tried something different this year. I sync all the cows that had a chance of responding and AI'd them. Then I leased an AI bull to do my cleanup. I'll know in the spring how it worked.

 

[RyanChandler]

We use to AI everything and now we have gone almost exclusively to using bulls. Why? When you have a bull you know what you are getting as far as genetics. You see him perform, keep his flesh, not have foot problems, get cows bred, etc. When you AI you really don't know exactly what you have and you may just have a hyped up little dink.

I still know what the genetics are behind the bulls I use to AI and I dont use unproven bulls. I have seen or trust someone that has seen calves before using. If just testing bulls I would sure like just a couple AIed then a whole bunch natural bred if he is not going to work. There has to be a first calf out of any bull, AI or natural bred. There are not many places in the US that use or have herd sires anymore. Mostly clean up bulls. If is aint broke dont fix it JTM.

Silliest thing I've heard all day.

 

[Duncraggan]

I've been in the pedigree Shorthorn business for ten years, the first seven farming 370km (>200 miles) from my home and mostly herdsires, the last three 86km (Approx. 50 miles) from my home and a fairly high proportion of AI.  From less than 2% AI progeny to about 30% AI progeny!

The biggest factor I have noticed is the lack of consistency.  Not withstanding that, I have had great success with the AI progeny.  I have taken to using my best performing 18-month and 24-month old bull as the junior herdsires/pick-up bulls for the last three years and have had two duds, one of which I pulled mid-season after seeing his first progeny, the other was already sold!

Having read books by the well known Tom Lasater as well as Prof. Jan Bonsma and another insightful article by/about one of the doyens of cattle breeding in South Africa, Arthur de Villiers, I decided to try the method of using a sire/sons type mating programme.  This year I am using two half brothers of the herdsire I brought with my move, so far 2013 will see me using two half brother sons of Spry's All Gold D052 who's South African semen rights I acquired in 2009.

I'll see what this strategy brings next year.  I have progeny of seven bulls, four AI and three through natural service, this year and the results are fairly erratic as far as the eye goes!  I have toned down the use of AI this year, due to the high costs and low conception, and lengthened the time from calving to breeding by one week for the AI and will check the cost per live calf to determine my strategy going forward.  My current cost for the whole programme, per cow inseminated, is approximately 30% of the value per live calf, all inclusive, which I find to be too high for my operation for the value created.  This has reduced my purchase of genetics to one seasons requirement at a time and this has allowed a higher turnover of bulls, as there is usually something new from the genetics companies every year!

This still doesn't reduce the number of available bulls in my tank every year, unfortunately!

In a nutshell, cost of programme versus cost of possible return makes economic sense in any language!