Any one heard of some "calming shots" for steers?

[Show Heifer]

I was going to stay out of this....I honestly was. But after erasing what I typed, going on to something else, then re-reading everything, and leaving yet again, I find myself on this post typing with no intentions of erasing this time.

I remember the day when some people (Dl, myself, and others) were "corrected" everytime we brought up a bulls TH/PHA status when it was "omitted" from a recommendation. I can remember when everyone told us "geesh you all, give it a rest EVERYONE knows about PH/THA. Let it rest." (Wasn't there just a post on this subject a few weeks ago???)

Chambero, my dear, I read your post (and re-read), and you implied that thorazine could be used in a calf. Maybe that was not your intent, but that is the way I took it. To me it was like someone asking on how to rob a bank, and someone telling them the combinations, etc, and then explaining to everyone, "Well heck, I didn't EXPECT them to actually DO it."  We are reminded CONSTANTLY by some that this is a board for and with kids.  In fact, I was told to assume most are kids when answering questions. (A lesson I learned when responding to a post by an imposter.)

A kid at a local fair ask me about how to "fill a steer" (pumping was expressedly illegal at this show). Now, he didn't say he was going to DO it. But I assumed that since he was asking, he was seeking information to DO it. Not just for his library of knowledge. Safe assumption????? My guess is yes. If I told him I would be just as guilty as him doing it.

Chambero: I honestly do not think 99.9% of the people now-a-days have any common sense. They all assume the information they are given is accurate and correct without THINKING for themselves.  If people had some common sense, con men couldn't swindle the elderly out of thousands of dollars, con men couldn't take advantage of flood victems, and con men couldn't send someone an email wanting help transfering money to a foreign country. Yet, all these dumb scams WORK. The con men get MILLIONS of dollars. WHY? Because people have no common sense anymore.
I also believe any vet, doctor, lawyer, that practices MALPRACTICE should be sued and dis-barred. And prescribing anything to calm a calf for a show is illegal. Sorry, it is. This is just an area I honestly do not see a gray area.

So my question to the original poster that had the question: (And please be honest) Were you seeking information for information sake, or were you wanting information on a drug so that you could find some and use it?????

And now I know why "real cattleman" have names for "steer jockeys and show cattle people". 

 

[simtal]

I agree with chambero on this debate.  If people are getting these drugs from vets then why should they have any reason to care.  Do you realize how how long the process for FDA approval is for a drug? And the millions of dollars that it takes to gain clearance?

 

[ZNT]

I believe there is a thing called "extra label" that allows vets to prescribe drugs.  I have had some VERY HONEST vets sell me Ace.  When clipping yearling bulls for bull sales, or unbroke cows and calves for a production sale, Ace is an invaluable drug.  It has prevent injury to the animal, injury to myself, and distruction of expensive equipment.  Since these cattle are not just naturally tame, should they not be cleaned up and marketed because it requires a little tranquilizer to clip their head and belly?  And if these tranquilizers are so ILLEGAL, then why does every vet clinic have it.  DL, do you have any ACE in your inventory?  Until recently, horses were used for human consumption, and the ones that go across the board still are.  Have you ever in your career DL, given a horse a tranquilizer?  They are for human consumption animal too, so wouldn't that be ILLEGAL?

I'll just stay out of the whole Yankee vs Texan thing.  since I am neither.  But I will sure say I love living in Texas, and it's great having good friends and neighbors like Chambero around.  Nothing better than  honest people making an honest living, no matter where you live!

 

[Telos]

The thought had once crossed my mind to enroll in a creative writing class at the University but I'm finding SP has more to offer then most Schools of higher learning.

Knabe, I didn't know that was the correct spelling for "ugh".  Must use it more often when I write. It has a nice sound. Ugh, ugh, ugh, ugh...

Even though I wouldn't pay money to see a "urination contest" between Chambero and DL it might be fun to take a THC cow and a PHAC bull and see which could urinate the most and have everyone place bets.

 

[redwingfarm]

This has kind of deteriorated into a "urination contest"  but I would like to reiterate my point -MAKE STEAKS don't take the risk, a possible trophy isn't worth it!!!

 

[chambero]

By the way , I think DL realized and I hope everyone else realizes my "Yankee joke" was meant completely in jest and not intended to offend.  This conversation was getting way too barbed and I was just trying to lighten it up a little.

I know DL isnt't wrong, but in my opinion my vets aren't either.

DL provides very valuable info from a perspective the rest of us dont have and I'm glad she's here.

Ugh is probably the best thoing to say about all this. 

 

[DL]

ZNT - we call people from Texas TEXANS

PLEASE read the rules and laws for extra label drug use before you go on and on about honest vets giving you drugs - (see previous post for sites). Ace is labeled for horses not for cattle. And there are some drugs forbidden from extra label use - you are producing food you should know what they are. It is not a simple issue but I am not willing to risk my licence so you can show a calf or clip a bull - some vets clearly are. It blows my mind that people producing the food we eat don't even read the labels on the bottles of drugs they turn around and give their animals. People have argued with me about the withdrawal period for Banamine - they say when given IM it is 4 days - WRONG

And don't think you are in the clear just because it was given to you by a vet - it doesn't make it right and it doesn't make it legal. Ask the kid who lost his Gr Ch $ in Ohio or the guy who spent time in prison. If your vet labeled it for horses and you gave it to cattle it is you in the ringer.

Because of peoples inability to read the label and use the drug legally and some veterinarians not knowing/following the law the FDA is considering not allowing (forbidding) extra label use for a very important food animal antibiotic (ie if it is labeled for pneumonia you can't use it for foot rot). Don't think your actions may not have repercussions for people who try to do things honestly.

rwf - what a rational response! thanks short and to the point

telos - the PHAC cow would win - look at all that extra fluid

chambero - absolutely - we have danced this dance long enough to know when to lead and when to just move your feet ;D

 

[ZNT]

Everybody heard DL, absolutely no Ace on cattle.  I guess any beef animal given it will be tainted for life, so any of you out there that has purchased a bull, cow, heifer, and even a lot of steers that were clipped for sales, you will just have to bury them when your done with them, because there is a good chance they recieved it.  And some of your "never broke" donor cows may be at risk too.  Oh, and watch out for those horse burgers when you leave the country.  My horse ferrier may have trimmed the hooves on it.  haha

Never in my post either did I condone using tranquilizers on cattle at shows, so no point using your grand champion steer getting thrown out as an example.  Anyways, I am sure there should have been a whole lot more calves thrown out, since I am sure that was not the only steer that had recieved a tranquilizer in it's lifetime.

Thank you for keeping it so black and white, because I know how black and white veterinary medicine is.

By the way, what seditive do you use when surgically dehorning, casterating a yearling bull, or dealing with a cow with toximia due to a 3 week dead calf in her?  And why don't vets just prescribe the drug you use, since yours is approved for use on cattle?

 

[DL]

Stop signs - everyone who drives knows you should stop at them and if you don't there could be consequences. You run a stop sign you know you run the risk of being caught and dealing with the consequences. (we are talking generic YOU)

Drug use in cattle - most people on this board have never read AMDUCA or the ELDU policy - they do not know and perhaps don't care about the use of drugs in food animals. This is also true for some vets - consequently they do not know what the law is - they just blissfully go about giving whatever to animals designated for food.

Extra label drug use is allowed if certain requirements are met - one of these is that the drug is used extra label for therapeutic purposed. Most drugs in our synch protocols are not labeled to be used in those protocols, but their use is interpreted by most as therapeutic (see it isn't really black and white - some people do not believe it is therapeutic that it is production and ELDU for production is not allowed). Using ace to sedate a calf for a procedure - cosmetic dehorning whatever would be considered therapeutic. Using ace to calm a show or sale animal is not therapeutic and therefore not permitted according to the law (it also might be considered unethical but I ain't going there again ).

My point being it would be good to know the law - it would be good to be informed - what you do with that information is basically your business - but you would then be making an informed decision - if you know the law and are willing to deal with the consequences - that is your choice.

BTW ZNT the drug that got the Gr Ch steer disqualified was not ace - it was dexamethasone - it was determined that the family/owner of the steer had violated the extra label drug use laws

PS - actually ZNT this is really funny 
I am sure you did not intend to make my point with your last post, but you did - thanks! If you read the label on your bottle of ace you will see that it is approved for use in dogs, cats, and horses. Your will also see that it says "Warning: Not for use in animals intended for food" remember that if yer gonna eat a horse or a dog or a cat  ;D ;D (clapping)

I am now going back to hauling manure - it is much more satisfying

 

[GONEWEST]

I CANNOT WAIT for someone to try to arrest me for using an antibiotic for foot rot that is labeled for pneumonia! The fact that something is or is not against some  law has absolutely no relation to its' ethical implications. Case in point, abortion is not against the law.

Chambero clearly stated that nothing would probably work on this particular calf. But what about one that just won't be still, or one who kicks when clippers get near his back feet, or cannot stand to have his head clipped. Maybe its easy for a wealthy Veterinarian to say just salvage the steer, but to the average family that has 3 or 4 thousand dollars in a calf, thats not so easy to do. If we have  correctly concluded that all things with in the law are not morally acceptable and not all things that are against the law are morally reprehensible,  then why is it unethical to treat a steer with something that will keep him from hurting himself or someone else? Because it's against some outdated FDA bureaucratic law?

Next thing you know they will be trying to arrest me for owning a cow that is a pha carrier. It's the scourge of the earth , you know.

 

[redwingfarm]

I can't believe what I'm reading GW, 1st of all the "average family" doesn't have 3-4 thousand in a calf, it is a shame to slaughter any project animal before the show but REALLY what are your family's well being worth???  I've been hurt by a nice calf that went wild, and if his kick was a few inches higher I would have needed major knee surgery.  With an unpredictable and questionable calf too many bad things can happen.  Funerals today run $5-10,000, which makes that calf seem cheap.  Please don't take a chance with your family or others  FORGET THE DRUGS whether legal, moral or not that is not the point.  Be SAFE  1st, cut your losses and enjoy tommorrow

 

[BCCC]

1st of all the "average family" doesn't have 3-4 thousand in a calf,

What are you considering average?

 

[BCCC]

). Using ace to sedate a calf for a procedure - cosmetic dehorning whatever would be considered therapeutic. Using ace to calm a show or sale animal is not therapeutic and therefore not permitted according to the law (it also might be considered unethical but I ain't going there again ).

Right so what I get from this is that its all right to use ace when dehorning a calf

PS - actually ZNT this is really funny 
I am sure you did not intend to make my point with your last post, but you did - thanks! If you read the label on your bottle of ace you will see that it is approved for use in dogs, cats, and horses. Your will also see that it says "Warning: Not for use in animals intended for food" remember that if yer gonna eat a horse or a dog or a cat 

So what you give a horse ace for somethign and 3 years later he goes crazy and you take him to get butchered(not anymore but still, say ship it out) hes wasnt intended to get butchered but it just happens thats whats gona happen to him, what now you gave a horse that wasnt intened for food but now is in the food chain is that all right? I say no but DL you just happen to be the one that gave the horse the ace so now the people that ate that horse are getting sick and they test the meat and it comes back positive for ace residue(or w/e) So who is to blame the lady in michigan that gave the horse the ace, that says she would NEVER give an animal for food ace??

 

[redwingfarm]

1st of all the "average family" doesn't have 3-4 thousand in a calf,

What are you considering average?

I would say about 90-95% of typical county fair steers.

 

[DL]

BCCC PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read the ELDU and AMDUCA information - if you had you would know the answers to both your questions. FYI part of the answer lies in the withdrawal time that your vet is legally required to provide (based on science not the phase of the moon) when you use a drug in an extra label manner.

Not to be unkind here but we have beat this rug to death. Responsible producers of food know the law and the regs. if you read the information you wouldn't have to go bonkers about this horse you would already know the answer. Enough already - do a little homework.

Gonewest - I don't make the laws - the FDA has requested comments on the cephalosporins as we speak - instead of making rude remarks about me why don't you try to pro-actively state your case why these drugs should be available extralabel - large penalties have been issued for residue infractions of these drugs - instead of shooting the messenger why don't you too try to become informed. And frankly if you want PHA carrier cows the government doesn't care and neither do I - it has nothing to do with food safety.

 

[knabe]

part of this will be solved with NAIS and when "producers" are in violation of the law, their fines will finance retirement and health care for yet more government workers.  compliance for anything will cost so much so as to make it problematic to have any business under a certain head count.

the frog is getting warm.

 

[txguy]

My advice is short and to the point. You have already put time, effort, and money into this project some animals do come out of it some don't. Keep the animal continue to work with it everyday, take it to jackpot shows tie it up in the stall. Drag him around to several jack pot shows, chances are he will eventually give in. On the drug side of it there are several items that are readily available. Some people believe its morally not right, but on the other hand this is your project, and you need to make the most of it.

 

[renegade]

A kid at a local fair ask me about how to "fill a steer" (pumping was expressedly illegal at this show).

Sorry is this hijacking  (lol)
I am just curious, what is pumping? I know what drenching is, is that similar? ))

 

[farmboy]

takeing a hose and shoving down a steers throat and filling him up

 

[renegade]

Hmmm, ok :-\ seems like that would stress them out more than anything. Id be afraid of drowning it