Anyone else having a problem with judges..

[SKF]

We have had a couple of shows this new show season so far and both judges have been placing heifers that have obvious structure problems in the top of the classes. There was this one heifer last weekend that moves so bad on her back legs that I amazed she can get around yet she keeps taking a 2nd place over heifers that are sound on their feet both times. The judge even commented on how she has problems with her rear legs becasue he could not pretend that it didn't have a major problem it is very obvious. To me heifers should be sound and if they are not they should NEVER place over heifers that are sound. They are breeding animals and one day they will be in a pasture being a cow. I hope this is not a new trend. Anyone else having this problem where you show?

 

[red]

It seems like some judges are very critical on legs & structure, others throw it out the window. I've seen both ends of the scale. I'm like you though, I cringe when a judge picks a bad structured animal over a good one. They need to be looking at the future of the animal not the now. How will some of these heifers make it after they're done in the show ring? Same thing w/ feeders, can the get to the bunk if they're so crippled up now? Doubtful.

Red

 

[knabe]

i'm thinking that the rationalization for this is that the heifers they are picking, they are picking them for the show industry and know they won't have to walk, but will produce a calf for the show market better than the sound heifers that lack other traits they were looking for.  this is my best attempt adhering to comments cowz has made about the show industry.  some of it is what is in front of the judge at the time in their eyes, with their experience, and who is choosing the judges and what their biases are.  shows should still be about fun, and as far as i'm concerned, this is my new motto, and that shows are really marketing outlets, a chance to learn. make friends, be a good sport etc.  all that from a recovering complainer (me).  red how would you rank the satisfaction when i can't remember who, hartman maybe, came up to you, said nice heifer or something and getting her sold in spite of what they were going to do with her vs a ribbon.  just on a scale of 1-10.  i've only won ribbons for showmanship and never for breeding, so i wouldn't know.

 

[Rocky Hill Simmental]

I've only been showing cattle for 4 years now and I have already seen some heifers win that I wouldn't have placed (Not that I'm an expert - I only judge livestock for FFA lol). Last year I thought the heifer I had was really something and she would always place in the lower part of her class. But, in my opinion, sometimes the top placing heifers aren't the ones that people would want in their herd. After the show, I had big commercial and purebred breeders coming to me making big offers on her and telling me they thought she was one of the best looking they've seen at the show. I ended up not selling her though. But here's what I got from it: Cattle are only worth as much as someone's willing to pay for them. It doesn't really matter how well they place, it just matters that you bring them to the show and people see them and like them.  Although, I wouldn't mind having a big purple rossete hanging above their stall. lol

 

[red]

rocky Hill- you hit the nail on the head. Unless someone is willing to pay the price a 10K is worth not much more than a 1K one. Our best cow ever was a real bargin at $1050. She has become the foundation of most of my cattle. Other than we paid a whole lot more for either didn't perform as cows or just didn't meet their expectations. My red cow has been the exception. She was both a show heifer & also has gone on to be an excellant maternal cow. Did pay more that a thousand for her though.

Red

 

[cowz]

We have had a couple of shows this new show season so far and both judges have been placing heifers that have obvious structure problems in the top of the classes. There was this one heifer last weekend that moves so bad on her back legs that I amazed she can get around yet she keeps taking a 2nd place over heifers that are sound on their feet both times. The judge even commented on how she has problems with her rear legs becasue he could not pretend that it didn't have a major problem it is very obvious. To me heifers should be sound and if they are not they should NEVER place over heifers that are sound. They are breeding animals and one day they will be in a pasture being a cow. I hope this is not a new trend. Anyone else having this problem where you show?

Unfortunately, In my humble opinion, there are some POLITICAL ones who only see who's behind the halter or are looking at bloodlines.  OR, they are some judges that sort the class by single trait selection and just never seem to put the "Total Package" to the top of the class.  Hang in there, just take note of who these judges are and make sure they are not hired in your neck of the woods again. 

My favorite judge of all time (NOT) was a breeder from MN who placed a heifer with such bad joints (You could hear them pop from the side of the ring) as breed champ at our state fair....said she moved free and easy.  Every one who witnessed this said "huh?"  ???

In the end, structure wins.  You just have to have enough other good things to get past the goobers!  Good Luck!

 

[Showcalves]

Well, our boys were just in our state 4-H livestock judging contest and on a class of bulls they got nailed because the hammered the bulls on structure.  The bull that officially won couldn't walk and they granted that in the official reasons!!!  Needless to say our boys were  and a little  that structure was overlooked in that setting.  It's bad enough to overlook it in show cattle but these are critters who are to be traveling the pastures breeding cows.  ???

Melinda

 

[cowz]

Well, our boys were just in our state 4-H livestock judging contest and on a class of bulls they got nailed because the hammered the bulls on structure.  The bull that officially won couldn't walk and they granted that in the official reasons!!!  Needless to say our boys were  and a little  that structure was overlooked in that setting.  It's bad enough to overlook it in show cattle but these are critters who are to be traveling the pastures breeding cows.   ???

Melinda

You really brought back memories on that one!  My older son's first year livestock judging was quite a lesson on finding the "safe placing" to try to "out think" the judging committee.  He spent too many formative years listening to ..."what a hunk of junk" when we refered to popping joints or fluid on bulls hocks or any cattle that could not travel.  He would always dump the best bull for having any leg issues.  Hard lesson to learn.

I hear you though.  Some of the judges out there have no "back ground connection".  By that I mean that they do not have any exposure to the commercial cattle industry who ultimately is the purchaser of the seedstock.  If bulls cant walk a mile to water, its hard to breed a cow.  I always remind the family that the commercial cattle "Drive the bus"!  We see breeders around us breeding on paper to chase EPD's without looking at phenotypical structure issues.

Sounds like your kiddos are on the right track.  Do not let them get discouraged.  Teach them to talk the structure issues very descriptively in their reasons.  Talking about "longevity in the bull herd"or "improved Soundness for a more sustainable cow herd" are some phrases that may gain a few points.   

 

[NHR]

All judges have their own view of what the idea animal should be. I dont always like it but it is their opinion.

Best thing is to remember to produce cattle that you like for the reasons that you like for your environment. What works at one ranch may not work at another. Develop your program around your end product.

 

[AAOK]

All judges have their own view of what the idea animal should be. I dont always like it but it is their opinion.

Best thing is to remember to produce cattle that you like for the reasons that you like for your environment. What works at one ranch may not work at another. Develop your program around your end product.

NHR is exactly right.  Livestock Shows are completely subjective.  There are certain criteria to follow, but way too many exceptions to mention.  I'm one who doesn't necessarily believe a Judge has to follow a pattern, but just pick the best calf in a class, and go from there.  I don't mind a calf being a little to straight, if they can still move without looking stiff.  I don't have a problem with a calf toeing out on the front feet, if it can track fairly well.  All the years we were showing, I noticed that most (not all) Ag teachers judged both steers and breeding heifers as market animals.  Breeders who Judged and lived in the Southern States preferred smaller framed calves than those in the Northern States.

Soundness in show calves is, and should be a critical issue, but what it all boils down to, is what imperfections the Judge on that particular day is willing to let pass, for him to select what type of calf he is looking for in each class.

 

[DL]

I've only been showing cattle for 4 years now and I have already seen some heifers win that I wouldn't have placed (Not that I'm an expert - I only judge livestock for FFA lol). Last year I thought the heifer I had was really something and she would always place in the lower part of her class. But, in my opinion, sometimes the top placing heifers aren't the ones that people would want in their herd. After the show, I had big commercial and purebred breeders coming to me making big offers on her and telling me they thought she was one of the best looking they've seen at the show. I ended up not selling her though. But here's what I got from it: Cattle are only worth as much as someone's willing to pay for them. It doesn't really matter how well they place, it just matters that you bring them to the show and people see them and like them.  Although, I wouldn't mind having a big purple rossete hanging above their stall. lol

GOOD FOR YOU! (clapping) (clapping) (clapping)

 

[DLD]

Soundness in show calves is, and should be a critical issue, but what it all boils down to, is what imperfections the Judge on that particular day is willing to let pass, for him to select what type of calf he is looking for in each class.

Dan pretty well sums it up. Far as I'm concerned, I'll take a judge that is consistent, even if I don't agree with the way he/she does it, if I can follow them and know what to expect, I'll feel like everybody gets a fair shake. If a judge costantly jumps around in the type and size of cattle they're using, I have to feel like they're either lost, or(/and) they're playing games.

The only way you can justify any animal with some soundness issues never beating any sounder one would be if you selected only for soundness, and we all should know by now that single trait selection (whether in the pasture, the show ring or the feed lot) is never a good thing. From there it goes back to what degree of unsoundness is acceptable to get the rest of the package, and obviously that answer is different for each of us.