Are Shows rigged or fixed?

[ROAD WARRIOR]

I agree with all of the above!
But, I point the finger to money...to the glory of the purple banner.
I'm with RW...I go to shows to promote my cattle, not to win. I would rather have a big check than a purple banner.

I think the line between cattle judge/cattle owner/cattle enthusist/ cattle jock/ cattle breeder gets blurred. Human nature to pick your friends, pick your clients. Example: If I bred Bob the bull and sold him to Jones. Jones promotes the crap out of him and shows him. I am a respected breeder and judge (ok, a stretch there!! ;D) so I am ask to judge the national show. Jones shows up with Bob. Remember, I bred and raised Bob. Of course I like him, I raise the type of cattle I like (duh) so of course I am going to compare all others to him. Now that is not to say another bull won't be better (whatever "better" is), but I bred/raised Bob, so he's gonna be the one to beat. Fair? Not exactly. Acceptable? Maybe. Human? Yep.

Do I think shows are 100% honest? No. But why should they be? The cattle certainly aren't honest most of the time. Birth dates changed, bloodlines blurred, breeds mixed, color changed/enhanced, ownership challenged. Do we expect an honest judge to judge dishonest cattle??

RW: what do you think of the Reds idea of mixing EPD's? And giving up BW epds????

Show Heifer - I'm not sure it will benifit our breed but what really steamed me was the Natioonal offices attempt to push it through with out member support. it was almost a done deal before the general membership was even told what was going on. We did get it stopped before they had spent several thousand dollars ($200,000+) on it but the idea of a rail road job just torques me off! As far as giving up the BW EPD - the whole EPD thing is a marketing tool. If they were accurate and reliable it would be a different story but there are too many people ( notice I didn't say breeders) manipulating the data turned in. The simple truth is that most EPDs are a manipulated guess - if you understand the formulas they use to arrive at the EPD, you can manipulate them into what ever you want them to be. IMO there are two sets of individuals with cattle. 1- people with cattle - they jump on what ever trait is hot at the time and in most cases "tweak" the numbers to fit them and make them the quickest buck. 2 - Breeders - The few and the proud that breed for quality cattle that are sound and functional and don't get carried away in single trait selection or jump on the what ever bull is hot this year wagon. Not many breeders left compared to 30 years ago.

 

[shortyjock89]

I think sales are rigged worse than any show ever was.  You all know that at these big production sales, money just changes hands and no one makes any money.  It does wonders for the sale average though. 

 

[bluegrass]

Shortyjock89, its not just trading money it is more about trading genetics. That's how they look at it. Jmo.

 

[genes]

I seriously doubt there are any shows out there that are "fixed" in a strict sense where money or services directly changes hands for a placing.  But it would also be naive to think that every show is judged as if the handlers were invisible and every calf had the same owner.  I've been in shows that seem to be pretty close to that and it is a pleasure and I commend those judges.  But I can see the reasons that it doesn't happen.  When a judge thinks he should not piss someone off an owner who he knows he might have to deal with down the road (IMO not a great reason, but definitely fits human nature).  When a judge lacks confidence in their judgement and so goes for the well known animal or breeder thinking it won't bring up the questions .  It's not ideal, but is it the breeders fault.  I have friends with a great reputation as breeders, and they win plenty.  Not always though, and they aren't whiners when they lose.  I of course don't know every deal they do, but I very highly doubt they let showing experiences influence business.  Yet there are times they've won with heifers that weren't their best, and weren't the best there that day.  But they didn't ask for it, so how can you hold it against them.  It's what itk was talking about with paying dues.....they've done it and earned their reputation and that's where there control over it ends.

 

[OH Breeder]

We show locally for the most part and do some state level shows. There are a couple of local breeders that are known nationally. I have personally seen them follow cattle in the ring, show cattle and talk with judges prior and after shows. I also note that when they do the mentioned things they stand in the top of there classes regardless the quality of the animals. There is a lot of back scratching  in this area. But, that is the way it goes. We go and hope to put on the best show with the quality of animal we have. We don't expect to win and if we do that makes it even more special.
Rarely though do you see well known cattle people showing lesser quality stock. I think that has lot to do with it as well. They show good animals and when it comes down to joe nobody with a heifer of equal quality then it will go to the somebody animal.
I am not sure if this makes any sense....

 

[DL]

I guess it's the politics & the bs that I don't like - yes I know it is everywhere (I don't like it other places either!) - almost everything we do has a subjective component that can influence the outcome - but it is the blatant back scratching that really bugs me...

 

[genes]

DL you should take up barrel racing or speed skating or something.  Just work against the clock

 

[shortyjock89]

Shortyjock89, its not just trading money it is more about trading genetics. That's how they look at it. Jmo.

Not when they're trading the exact same genetics back and forth....*cough  Trump x Mattis/Mirage cough*

 

[DLD]

Politics happen... Sometimes to a level to be considered cheating, but I don't consider things like having "the right" person on the stick (in an open show) cheating (is there a rule written or implied that an owner must personally show their animal? ).

Another thing to consider about "knowing the judge"... There are judges I like to show under because I know the kind of cattle they use. Chances are, if I can get along under them it's because we like the same kind of cattle, so yeah, they're prob'ly going to get along pretty well under me, too. Case in point - I sold a steer last year that I was always confident would get along under one of the judges at one of the majors. Not because this judge had seen the calf before, or knew the young lady showing him or that I had sold him, but because I've known for years the kind of cattle he raises and shows and picks when he judges. Sure enough he was breed champion. I'll go out of my way to show under this guy, not because he "takes care of me" but because I know what he likes, and I've prob'ly got something he'll like, because that's what I like, too. That's not cheating, but somebody's prob'ly going to say it is, just because a particular exhibitor or breeder consistently wins under a particular judge.

I wish the "pool" we select judges from was bigger, at every level, but it's hard to use somebody that's not at least somewhat of a known quantity. Even if we don't completely agree with that group, we know what to expect from them.  Outside of the "pool", who knows? 

Now couple that with the group of breeders/exhibitors that consistently have good cattle, present them well, and know what it takes to win this show, under this judge... It takes you back to the same group of people winning under the same judges, and someone else is always going to be unhappy about that.

Bottom line - Do I think shows are fixed? Yeah, I'm sure it happens, but I'd say most of the time judges call 'em as they see 'em, and most of those complaining about it are looking for excuses as to why they got beat.

Of course just 'cause they call 'em how they see 'em doesn't mean they see 'em very well either...

David

 

[Telos]

DLD,I have always enjoyed reading your commentaries. Darn, you should do this for a living. It's all about substance and you deliver.

P.S. Hope you'll have a bunch of "purple cow" offspring for fall sales.  Market still looks strong down here in Texas. heh, heh, heh... 
        ( Ooooops, maybe I meant to say.... purple banner winning offspring....)

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

The politics in the show ring is a fact that is probably here to stay. However, I do think that some of it has gotten out of control. I attend several show/sales every year and I think it makes the judges look a little foolish when the animals that they have picked as grand and reserve bring alot less money than some of the cattle that were placed considerably lower in their respective classes. I attended one this past winter where the champion bull brought $2100.00 while several calves that did not even make it into the champion drive were bringing $3000.00 - $6700.00. The high selling bull was second in class (only two in the class) and the second high selling bull was third in his respective class. On that particular day the ranchers made the judge look pretty rediculous with their check books. I thought it was embarressing for not only the judge but also the family that two holed both the bull and heifer show that day. I certainly lost any respect for either of them that I may have had before.