ASK OLDHORN A QUESTION

[aandtcattle]

Old Horn,
What do you mean you bought the biggest ribeye scan bull in history in 1970?????????  You have me confused, like majorly.

 

[aj]

They didn't scan back then did they?

 

[garybob]

They didn't scan back then did they?

i think they were starting to.

GB

 

[aj]

When were the L1 herfords started?

 

[aandtcattle]

I sure don't think they were scanning for carcass quality in 1970 folks.  If they were and I do not recall that, I have a very good reason, I was born in 1979.  If they were indeed scanning cattle in 1970, our progress in the last 40 years has been lousy to say the least.

 

[RedBulls]

I sure don't think they were scanning for carcass quality in 1970 folks.  If they were and I do not recall that, I have a very good reason, I was born in 1979.  If they were indeed scanning cattle in 1970, our progress in the last 40 years has been lousy to say the least.

Aaron, The technology was developed in the early 60's. Here is the opening paragraph from an article by W.P. Garrigus in the 1963 Shorthorn World herd bull edition. "The use of ultrasonics for evauating meatiness in live animals is passing out of the research phase and becoming a useful tool for alert, far-sighted breeders who wish to make a real contribution to breed improvement, and, at the same time, want to outdistance their competition."
Oldhorn is to be applauded as he evidently had the foresight to use this technology. For the most part, Shorthorn breeders ignored it. (He((, we even to banned AI for a long time!) It was adopted by a large number of Angus breeders. As they say..."The rest is history"!

Oldhorn, I want to thank you for sharing your insights and hope we hear more from you.

 

[Okotoks]

I sure don't think they were scanning for carcass quality in 1970 folks.  If they were and I do not recall that, I have a very good reason, I was born in 1979.  If they were indeed scanning cattle in 1970, our progress in the last 40 years has been lousy to say the least.

Aaron, The technology was developed in the early 60's. Here is the opening paragraph from an article by W.P. Garrigus in the 1963 Shorthorn World herd bull edition. "The use of ultrasonics for evaluating meatiness in live animals is passing out of the research phase and becoming a useful tool for alert, far-sighted breeders who wish to make a real contribution to breed improvement, and, at the same time, want to outdistance their competition."
Oldhorn is to be applauded as he evidently had the foresight to use this technology. For the most part, Shorthorn breeders ignored it. (He((, we even to banned AI for a long time!) It was adopted by a large number of Angus breeders. As they say..."The rest is history"!

Oldhorn, I want to thank you for sharing your insights and hope we hear more from you.

I thought ultrasound had been around quite awhile. Definitely underused technology. Interesting that you still can't use AI in Thoroughbred horses and register the offspring. Question is would breeds be better off with less AI, might create more diversity in pedigrees, more emphasis on bull production and less rushing to use the latest winner in a big show? Plus think of the increased bull market!

 

[justintime]

I don't know for certain when ultrasound started to be used in general in the industry but I suspect it would have been in the mid 80s... at least here in Canada. The reason I say this was that when we were feeding cattle, the only tool we had up until the mid 80s was our Blue Tag program offered by the Canadian Agriculture department, where we could buy blue tags for $1 each and get complete carcass data on each individual animal. It was near the end of our cattle feeding, that a Government official asked if he could test some of our finished cattle using ultrasound and then collect the actual carcass data when the animals were slaughtered. In any event, I do not think the original ultrasound was totally accurate as I ran a few through twice to see how accurate it was, and we got different results on most of them. The technology has improved many times over since then.

 

[oldhorn]

The Bennet cattle i knew were bigger cattle for the time. I do not recall them succumbing to the belt buckle craze.

 

[oakview]

Ultrasound was being used in some instances that I remember back in the late 60's and early 70's.  Kadel Urice of Vinton, Iowa, consigned a bull to the Iowa Royal back then (forerunner of the Iowa Beef Expo) that ultrasounded over 2 sq. in. ribeye/cwt.  He was one of the top selling bulls at about 1,200.  We sold a steer calf sired by our 7/8 son of the old Maine bull, Etula, that ultrasounded a 19,5 ribeye in the late 80's.  He was probably the 2nd most winning steer of his year in Iowa.  Some people told me that was too big, the housewife wants smaller cuts today.  I replied that the steak could be cut in half if you wanted a smaller one.  I remember the Certified Meat Sire program from back in the 60's.  To qualify, cattle had to meet certain gain and carcass standards.  One of the requirements was 2 sq.in ribeye/cwt. carcass weight if I remember right.  Colomeadow Sting Ray, owned by Dale Petty, met the certified meat sire requirements.  I talked to Dale last year and he said he still had semen.  He went back to Ringwell breeding for those of you who want some real old school stuff.  The packer buyers in the 60's used to shy away from Shorthorns because of their perception that they were too fat and had smaller ribeyes.  The ultrasound tool and selection pressure has helped alleviate this problem, but there is still some of it out there.

 

[knabe]

We sold a steer calf sired by our 7/8 son of the old Maine bull, Etula, that ultrasounded a 19,5 ribeye in the late 80's.  He was probably the 2nd most winning steer of his year in Iowa.  Some people told me that was too big, the housewife wants smaller cuts today. 

so if all else was relatively equal and one had more prime cuts versus hamburger, cutting the a new york in half would seem to make everyone happy.

 

[oldhorn]

I'm not sure why we didn't make more use of the bigger scotch bloodlines.  In 1956 I was at the Royal Fair at Norwich where4 Calrossie Constellation was crowned champion.  I was impressed  by the size, thickness and smooth shoulder.  As a devout believer of the polled trait, I found his horns his only flaw.  When Louada  Farms brought his son Bapton Constructor to Canada, I followed his success with admiration.  I think Jack Ragsdale did his thesis on the Constructor influence on the breed.  The importation of Charolais set us off chasing size at weaning and the inherent qualities of the British breeds seemed unimportant.

 

[r.n.reed]

Oldhorn, Thanks for your reply on the Hilldale cattle.

Okotoks,even though A.I.is not allowed in the Thoroughbred breed they are still dominated by the Northern Dancer line,so I don't think it would create much diversity by limiting AI.It is interesting that their are two types of operations in that industry as well,breed to race are the work horses and commercial are hot ticket pedigrees to entice new buyers.

 

[garybob]

Ultrasound was being used in some instances that I remember back in the late 60's and early 70's.  Kadel Urice of Vinton, Iowa, consigned a bull to the Iowa Royal back then (forerunner of the Iowa Beef Expo) that ultrasounded over 2 sq. in. ribeye/cwt.  He was one of the top selling bulls at about 1,200.  We sold a steer calf sired by our 7/8 son of the old Maine bull, Etula, that ultrasounded a 19,5 ribeye in the late 80's.  He was probably the 2nd most winning steer of his year in Iowa.  Some people told me that was too big, the housewife wants smaller cuts today.  I replied that the steak could be cut in half if you wanted a smaller one.  I remember the Certified Meat Sire program from back in the 60's.  To qualify, cattle had to meet certain gain and carcass standards.  One of the requirements was 2 sq.in ribeye/cwt. carcass weight if I remember right.  Colomeadow Sting Ray, owned by Dale Petty, met the certified meat sire requirements.  I talked to Dale last year and he said he still had semen.  He went back to Ringwell breeding for those of you who want some real old school stuff.  The packer buyers in the 60's used to shy away from Shorthorns because of their perception that they were too fat and had smaller ribeyes.  The ultrasound tool and selection pressure has helped alleviate this problem, but there is still some of it out there.

How was Stingray on his feet and legs?

GB

 

[aj]

I am with JIT on this one. I would wonder about the accuaracy back then. Even today there is a difference between indivual scaning people.

 

[r.n.reed]

What ever happened to the Blomstrom herd?Did you ever get to see any of the Fascinator line bulls and if so what were your thoughts on them?They seem to be a reacurring theme in the pedigrees of the old bulls that still have some semen available today.Did you ever see the Collynie Goods jr. bull in the Fred Johnson herd?

 

[hamburgman]

Make no mistake about it, there are many thoroughbreds that are of AI creation that race and are supposed to be natural serviced. It is a dirty little secret the jockey club tries to keep under control.

 

[Okotoks]

Do you know of any semen available on some of the bulls you liked back in the 60's?

 

[Okotoks]

The Whitehall Sultan, Avondale, Browndale line used to dominate the show yards in the 20's and 30's, Did this line show up in later breeding or did the Scottish cattle totally displace them? Did some herds keep these American lines going?

 

[oldhorn]

Most of the bloodlines that made shorthorns the prominent breed of the early 20th century fell victim to the farm crisis of the 30's and the race to join the "belt buckle" crowd.  I knew of a couple herds of outstanding cows, mostly avondale and duchess of gloster heritage, that faded into oblivion when they were no longer popular.  Until1940 money was very hard to come by  and the purebred cattle industry increasingly became a haven for tax dodges.  Beef AI really didn't catch on until the mid 60's and then there wre breed regulations, including the one saying "semen dies with the bull".  Not many were willing to spend the money, realizing the bull might die before he could use the semen.  One bull of the 50's that I greatly admired was Otto Johnson's Browndale Monarch.  When he sold for a then record price of$6300,  I  told my dad he was worth it.My dad only snorted.  I wish I had done more traveling and herd visiting in my formative years.  I would meet soe of these gentlemen at sales,we'd talk cattle, they'd invite m,e to stop by sometime.  Well, sometime never got here and now they're gone.