Asking Too Much??!!

[shortyisqueen]

I am starting to look around for clubby bulls to use for breeding this spring and am hoping some of you Steerplaneteers can help me out! Does anyone have a suggestion for pretty easy calving (consistently, I'm scared of Monsters!!!) black clubby bull that will add some bone, hair and thickness. The bull doesn't need to be homozygous black and will be used on non-clubby bred Shorthorn x Hereford three and four year old females. 

As far as the strengths of the females - They are extremely structurally sound, good fronted/good headed, extra deep-ribbed, and have dispositions like puppy dogs. Some also tend to throw color and we have had excellent success getting blue or blue baldy calves out of some of these females. They are all TH/PHA free, so I would prefer a bull that is defect free so that we can market the heifer calves without the extra effort of testing. That being said, there's always some sacrifices to be made for that extra bone/hair - If I find a bull that meets the rest of the criteria, I guess we'll just have to test!!!

We used Gigolo Joe, Manchild and Doctor Who last year. The Gigolo Joe's came without a hitch, the Manchild's and Doctor Who's definitely came with some birthweight to them. I was looking at Naughty Pine, Eye Candy, Tyson or Jigsaw for this year. Has anyone had any experience with these bulls? Any other suggestions you can give me would be great as well. Thanks a bunch!!!

 

[Throttle]

How big framewise are the females in question?

 

[shortyisqueen]

They are all about frame 6's... They certainly don't need to be bigger...but we won't need them to be downsized too much either!

 

[BIGTEX]

If you want a TH/PHA free bull with some bone you may want
To look at some of the Free/Free Heatwave sons. All Aboard, Shockwave, White Boy...
The Punisher is a free bull sired by Heat Seeker. I have not use any of
These bulls, but maybe someone on here can help.

 

[olsun]

I have been looking into a bull called Total Solution. A Who son. I have seen some very nice calves from him, and he is said to be heifer safe, if you can believe that. I'm not saying to jump right in, but you might check him out. While you are checking, CAB has a good Who son called Wilson that might just be the answer. Just a thought. Have fun looking.

 

[Chap]

semi proven, big boned, whale A$$#@, hairy, gentle clubby bulls that will work on 2nd calvers.  This is a task!!!!  I guess if I was in your shoes with younger cows , I would stay with TH and PHA bulls that may give you a steer but hope for heifers.    Bulls i would consider .... WMW, Hairy, Hannibal, Shiver, Alias, Wilson, or a pb maine bull to make breed steers or maintainer heifers .  Joe, Tyson, Money Man, etc would work fine.  If you are convinced that bone and hair are you top priorities i would use Sunseeker.  moderate calving, consistently hairy and heavy muscled with bone. 
IMHO

 

[shortyisqueen]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. Unfortunately, a few of the bulls you've all been able to throw at me aren't available up here...I'm in the great White north, so we don't have the benefit of as much variety. It is interesting to hear what all you're using and having success with though, as hopefully some of these bulls will be available to us sometime down the road.

We won't be keeping any of the heifers as these cows are our 'terminal program,' so to speak, so none of these genetics are going back into the herd. The mommas seem to be able to raise something marketable with one cross to a clubby bull - so we can maintain our cowherd as F1's and not run into the breed hodge-podge...which would make breeding decisions even harder.

Are the birthweights on some of those Heatwave sons as unpredicatable as Heatwave himself? I'm guessing that since we seemed to get birthweight from Doctor Who on these females that a Who sired bull may also leave us some birthweight...They won't need to be "heifer-safe" persay...Just birthweights that are manageable. Our last Doctor Who was 144 pounds. The cow must have had some hip room to get that one out, as she isn't a big cow and the calf was born unassisted and just fine...WAY too big for comfort though!!! I cringe at the thought of having one of those backwards...

 

[Chap]

I had the same problem with Dr Who, can't believe that some actually used him on heifers at one time.  I have had bunches of Sunseeker calves and they have all been reasonable on birth, same with WMW himself.  i have some jigsaw embryo's but haven't calved any of them out yet.  Naughty Pines have been pretty popular down here in IA and i have not heard any train wrecks with calving.

 

[shortdawg]

What about the Witchdoctor - old but proven

 

[red]

how do your Joe calves turn out? If great, I'd stick w/ him.

Red

 

[justme]

Try Major's Money Man.  I've had great success with him.  He won't make them any bigger either.  Our bull were taking to the Iowa Beef Expo was only 78 pounds born unassisted from a 1st calf show heifer and he's a good rip.  Here's a picture we took last weekend.  He has hair like a yak, huge butted, thick topped, and moves out really nice.  Our heifers out of him are great, we kept all of them for in our herd.

 

[Tooker]

I am starting to look around for clubby bulls to use for breeding this spring and am hoping some of you Steerplaneteers can help me out! Does anyone have a suggestion for pretty easy calving (consistently, I'm scared of Monsters!!!) black clubby bull that will add some bone, hair and thickness. The bull doesn't need to be homozygous black and will be used on non-clubby bred Shorthorn x Hereford three and four year old females. 

As far as the strengths of the females - They are extremely structurally sound, good fronted/good headed, extra deep-ribbed, and have dispositions like puppy dogs. Some also tend to throw color and we have had excellent success getting blue or blue baldy calves out of some of these females. They are all TH/PHA free, so I would prefer a bull that is defect free so that we can market the heifer calves without the extra effort of testing. That being said, there's always some sacrifices to be made for that extra bone/hair - If I find a bull that meets the rest of the criteria, I guess we'll just have to test!!!

We used Gigolo Joe, Manchild and Doctor Who last year. The Gigolo Joe's came without a hitch, the Manchild's and Doctor Who's definitely came with some birthweight to them. I was looking at Naughty Pine, Eye Candy, Tyson or Jigsaw for this year. Has anyone had any experience with these bulls? Any other suggestions you can give me would be great as well. Thanks a bunch!!!

Try Dirty Harry, Hairy Bear, or Chill Factor. Hairy Bear's are thick and of course HAIRY. Dirty Harry (in my opinion) is more consistent than Ali (just my opinion) and of course Chill Factor for the heifer's or breed steers. I have heard a couple of horror stories on Naughty Pine and have seen a couple of structural wrecks. (Of course I didn't see the cow which is half of it) Good Luck!

 

[knabe]

after talking with literally over 20 people from canada on the phone,

what may not be known is that american bulls may be failing health exams for export use to canada.

anyone have any idea what these failures might be?

i think this year only a couple are suitable for export.

one is tyson, the other, gigolo joe.

 

[tadpole]

Just had a 62 lb (actual bw) Total Solution bull calf this afternoon out of a first calf heifer.  He is a pretty thick little guy considering how small he is.

 

[shortyisqueen]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I'm going to have to do some more research and see what exactly we have available through some of the other distributors that deal with Canadian sales. I believe there are a few of them that are qualified through Semex at least...We will probably try sampling two or three bulls to see what clicks....If you all think of anything else as calving comes your way, I would love to hear it! Thanks everyone!

(Love that Money Man calf, Justme!)

 

[Stihlpro]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. Unfortunately, a few of the bulls you've all been able to throw at me aren't available up here...I'm in the great White north, so we don't have the benefit of as much variety. It is interesting to hear what all you're using and having success with though, as hopefully some of these bulls will be available to us sometime down the road.

We won't be keeping any of the heifers as these cows are our 'terminal program,' so to speak, so none of these genetics are going back into the herd. The mommas seem to be able to raise something marketable with one cross to a clubby bull - so we can maintain our cowherd as F1's and not run into the breed hodge-podge...which would make breeding decisions even harder.

Are the birthweights on some of those Heatwave sons as unpredicatable as Heatwave himself? I'm guessing that since we seemed to get birthweight from Doctor Who on these females that a Who sired bull may also leave us some birthweight...They won't need to be "heifer-safe" persay...Just birthweights that are manageable. Our last Doctor Who was 144 pounds. The cow must have had some hip room to get that one out, as she isn't a big cow and the calf was born unassisted and just fine...WAY too big for comfort though!!! I cringe at the thought of having one of those backwards...

This is amazing to me.  I have used Dr Who for the last 3 years (6 plus calves per year) and have never had one over 82 lbs. 

 

[CAB]

  I've had some big ones out of Dr. Who also and cringe when PPL recommend him for heifers. I've seen calves too big for cows to have. I like the calves out of him andlove the females that I see out of him.

 

[knabe]

here's some info on collecting bulls for export and why many bulls may not qualify for export, not because they have something, but because the tests are pretty exhaustive.

http://www.rmssbulls.com/Forwebpagehealth2.htm

Following is a summary of the CSS testing protocol as outlined in the “CSS Minimum
Requirements for Disease Control of Semen Produced for A.I.”:

    TESTING ENVIRONMENTS
  Pre-entry to isolation Isolation Resident Herd
  (Within 30 days prior to (Testing before entry into  Semen collection center
  entering isolation a resident herd and semen
  facilities) release)

Physical Examination Conducted by accredited
  veterinarian.

Tuberculosis Negative intradermal Negative intradermal Negative intradermal
  tuberculin test (Within 60 tuberculin test at least 60 tuberculin test at 6
  days prior to entry). days after the pre-entry month intervals
  test.

Brucellosis Official test of the state Compliment Fixation (CF) Compliment Fixation (CF)
  where bull is located. and one BAPA or Card and one BAPA or Card
  Blood serum test (CF,  test at least 30 days after test at 6 months invervals.
  BAPA or Card). pre-entry testing.

Bovine Viral Diarrhea One negative virus isol- One negative virus isol-
Virus ation test performed on ation test performed on
  either whole blood  either whole blood 
  (animals less than 6 (animals less than 6
  months of age) or serum, months of age) or serum
  or an antigen capture
  ELISA Negative virus isolation
  test of processed semen
  before release for use, or
  Negative virus isolation
  test of processed semen
  for any donors testing
  BVDV positive by the
  SN test.

Leptospirosis Blood test for 5 serotypes Blood test for 5 serotypes Blood test for 5 serotypes
  important in the USA*. important in the USA* important in the USA* at
  at least 30 days after intervals of 6 months.
  pre-entry tests.

          * L. pomona, L. hardjo, L. canicola, L. icterohaemorrhagiae, L. grippotyphosa

Campylobacteriosis   Series of negative culture Negative single culture test
  tests of prepucial material of prepucial material or FA
  or screening by fluorescent for screening test at 6
  antibody (FA) with any month intervals.
  positive FA tested by
  culture for final
  determination.

  Bulls under 180 days of age-
  negative on 1 test.

  Bulls 180-364 days of age-
  negative on 3 weekly tests.

  Bulls 365 days or older-
  negative on 6 weelky tests.

Trichomoniasis   Series of negative Negative single microscopic
  microscopic evaluations of test of cultured prepucial
  cultured prepucial material. material at 6 month intervals.

  Bulls under 180 days of age-
  negative on 1 test.

  Bulls 180-364 days of age-
  negative on 3 weekly tests.

  Bulls 365 days or older-
  negative on 6 weelky tests.

 

[cdncowboy]

I'm not sure if is totally based upon failing health testing, partially sure, but when you include the extra expense required for obtaining exportable semen most probably can't justify the extra expense.  I would doubt if there are more than 1000 doses of "clubby" semen sold in Canada every year on all bulls.  We operate in a slightly different environment up here, there just isn't the same kinda dollars in it, as a result there are only a handful of dedicated producers. 

Shortyisqueen, select sires has Hairy(Hairy Bear x Harrieta) available in Canada, don't know much about him but find him interesting, think I might give him a try this year.  Strangely I have used Dr. Who on heifers, only one year, but have never had any trouble with him on cows.  You'll love the females.  I'm expecting some Jigsaw's in about a months time.  Ahh but wouldn't it be nice to have the selection of AI sires our American friends enjoy!!

 

[shortyisqueen]

Thanks, cdn cowboy. I didn't know Select Sires was offering any bulls in Canada, so that might be an option to go on. Let me know how those Jigsaw's turn out! Calving news would be great, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and decide what to order soon.