BCS what?

[OKshorthorn]

In my opinion, for an offense to be great. They need to have a balanced attack. When an offense has trouble moving the ball consistently either on the ground or through the air, it spells trouble. A good defense, not great, can slow down an offense like that.

I think LSU is a great football team, without a doubt they earned their way to the MNC, and deserved to be there. I just don't believe they have a good offense. Like was said earlier, their defense either scored or put them in position to score easily many many times, which translates to more points per game. I am not taking away anything from the fact that is part of football and that is what great defenses do.

I just get a little agitated when people think that LSU's offense would put up 40 points on OSU's awful defense. I also don't think we would put up 50 on LSU's defense.

 

[knabe]

How many points did special teams and defense score?

Also, what was average starting point for lsu offense to start?  That's howmtheynkilled oregon which obviously killed themselves with turnovers and inability to move when they had to.

 

[JSchroeder]

I just get a little agitated when people think that LSU's offense would put up 40 points on OSU's awful defense.

Again, other than obvious bias, what is that based on?

Other than the two Alabama games LSU played 9 teams with higher ranked scoring defenses than OSU.  They averaged 38 points per game.

In the game against West Virginia, who allowed the exact same 26.8 points per game as OSU and runs an extremely similar offense, they scored 47 and won by 26 points.

But that’s based on scoring defense, as you said yourself OSU has the #1 defense based on one of the Football Outsiders methodologies.  Fine, by that same methodology, their offense is actually better than OSU’s.

 

[JSchroeder]

Knabe, the only team with a higher turnover differential than LSU this year was OSU.  The insane amount of takeaways the OSU defense caused is the primary reason they’re ranked so highly in that one FO defensive ranking system.

On the flip side, LSU’s inept, dismal, one-dimensional offense took care of the ball much better only turning it over 10 times vs the 23 for OSU.  Both LSU would have lost to Oregon and OSU would have lost to A&M without their ball hawking skills.

 

[DLD]

This horse is way past dead, but I guess I've got a couple (or three)  things to say too...

1 - ESPN controls the BCS and thus the national championship game.  They have a huge investment in the SEC, and expect it to pay huge returns.  If you can't admit that they shamelessly promoted the LSU vs Bama matchup since mid-season, you've just been drinking too much of their kool aid.  Most everyone outside of Bama fans and ESPN will agree that LSU vs OSU or Stanford or pretty much any other top non-SEC team would have made for a more interesting and entertaining match up.

2 - Any chance OSU might've had to play in the BCS championship was lost that night at Iowa State.  Most everyone knows there were circumstances that hurt OSU that night - most everyone outside the OSU fan base doesn't care.  Any school that isn't a "tradituional power" has to perform flawlessly all season to have any hope of getting the bid, we all know that.  It's just different when it happens to you.

3 - Any chance Bama had for playing in the BCS championship should've been lost the night they lost to LSU at home.  You can roll out all the statistics and "eye tests" you want to, but even Saban himself has said that a team that couldn't win it's own conference doesn't deserve to play in the championship. But, it's just different when it happens to you.

 

[pjkjr4]

Jeff- You're also picking and choosing which stats you choose to pay attention to. Yes, Alabama is a very good team. No doubt one of the best college defenses...EVER (at least in the last 25 years). But the argument that was originally posted is....Alabama got a mulligan, so why shouldn't oSu....Stanford.....Oregon.....Houston, etc.? I would love to see (off the record if need be) a game now between Alabama and oSu in say Jerry's World, just to see. I think we'd get beat, but I don't think we'd get shut out.

 

[OKshorthorn]

My only point is that LSU's offense is not that good. As Knabe stated, how many points and turnovers did their defense have. You keep going back to how many points LSU scored per game, but their yardage gained on offense was not good. Thats it. They do not have anything close to an elite offense.

 

[JSchroeder]

DLD…

1 - I can remember numerous ESPN commentators that said they’d rather see an LSU vs OSU match up than a rematch.  It was argued to the point that it became one of those sports argument cliches on all of the ESPN radio shows.

2 – The Iowa St. loss is not one of those “different when it happens to you” deals.  No team has ever played in the BCS national title game after losing to a 6-7 team, “traditional power” or not.

LSU’s offensive coordinator was diagnosed with parkinsons and they were missing numerous star players for chunks of the season.  They had plenty of adversity that I’d put on par or higher than the adversity faced by OSU.

3 – The SEC were also in favor of a playoff a long time ago.  Care to remember what the Big XII’s position has always been?

eff- You're also picking and choosing which stats you choose to pay attention to.

That implies that I’m leaving something out.  What exactly do you think I’m leaving out?  I’ve drawn from everything including the sources you guys are talking about.

But the argument that was originally posted is....Alabama got a mulligan, so why shouldn't oSu....Stanford.....Oregon.....Houston, etc.?

Because Alabama had a better season than OSU, Stanford, Oregon, and Houston and we don’t have a playoff yet.  

I would love to see (off the record if need be) a game now between Alabama and oSu in say Jerry's World, just to see. I think we'd get beat, but I don't think we'd get shut out.

I think the playoff would have gone Bama over OSU and LSU over Stanford.  While I see nothing to favor OSU over LSU, I do think OSU would have had a better shot at LSU than Bama.  I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, OSU v Arkansas would be the best match up.

You keep going back to how many points LSU scored per game, but their yardage gained on offense was not good. Thats it. They do not have anything close to an elite offense.

Now it’s just that they’re “not anything close to elite” instead of “inept”, “one-dimensional”, and “dismal”?

If you’re now going back to yards per game (which one of you said was a bad stat), their offense at #75 is still quite a bit better than your defense at #107.  Conversely, if you go with the one rating system that gives your defense credit, their offense is actually better than yours while their defense is right on par with OSU.  Every indication is they’d have hung 40 on you just like they did against West Virginia and Arkansas, both fast paced offensively minded schools with significantly better defenses (using YPG as you just did).

There is only one area that OSU clearly surpasses LSU in and that is passing yards per game.  I blame what the Big XII has become (a better version of the Pac-12) for why you guys think that's what wins games.  Once you look at the holistic analysis of the teams, it’s a landslide in favor of LSU.

-F/+ :  LSU 38.1% vs OSU 27.3%.  LSU better in offense, defense, and special teams.
-FEI : LSU .318 vs OSU .311.  
-S&P:  LSU 304.1 vs OSU 261.7.  The LSU offense that you guys continue to lament is the #7 overall offense.
-All but one of the six BCS computer rankings still has LSU over OSU.  The only one that has OSU higher also puts them above Alabama.
-Sagarin’s system would still put the line at 2-3 points in favor of LSU.

Bottom line, who knows what the heck would have happened, it’s college football and upsets happen.  However, this idea that you guys were cheated or that you would have been any sort of a favorite vs LSU is unfounded.

 

[pjkjr4]

Here are some valid points to back up my argument. I picked out a few games. I can't believe I'm wasting time doing this, but here goes:

All season LSU has benefited from their D and ST units gift wrapping points. Much like oSu has. They are 70+ in total offense nationally for a reason. They are an offense with a good run game but nothing else when it is shut down.

1- Oregon's turnovers & special teams set up 33 of their 40 points. LSU's offense was pretty grounded that day with 273 yards, 3.9 per play, 3.65 per carry, and 45% completions. Not exactly offensive strength.
2- WVU is not some top tier D and LSU's #s against them are pretty much what Maryland, Clemson, and their 7 Big East opponents put up. Add to that the fact that 21 of their points were gift wrapped by the D & Special teams and it isn't impressive.
3- Florida was the one game in this list that actually has some luster offensively. The LSU ground game did well and the QBs played well because of it. What? An SEC team that doesn't have a stellar D?? I know....sounds crazy, I know.

4- Auburn is #81 in total D despite playing crap offenses like MSU, Ole Miss, FAU, Samford, and Florida for half their schedule. Not impressed at all. Utah State ran all over that D, for Pete's sake.

5- Arkansas can shut down a one dimensional KSU team (much like several teams did) but was a defense that fired their coordinator after being 73rd in run defense. A&M ran for over 300 on them.

6- UGA was a game they scored points but did so in spite of only 237 yards of offense.

Not exactly a sterling resume.

I know there are always excepitons to the rule, I give you that. I'll also give you that LSU's defense is good. But to compete at that level, good QB play is imperitive. Jefferson, in the games he had played, had done a decent job of being an option QB. The way you beat an option QB, is to play assignment football, and have speed on the edge. Schnellenberger and Miami taught us that back in the '80s when they won the National Title against ou and their wishbone attack. That being said, that is one of the strenghts of oSu's D...assignment/gap control, and speed...alot of it. Bama did everything oSu would have done. Sell out to stop the run and make Jefferson beat you with his arm (which he can't do).

Back to oSu O vs LSU D- This spread offense is a derived from it's originator Hal Mumme. Leach took it to Kentucky, ou, and finally Texas Tech. Through all the different stops that it made, when it came to Stillwater in 2010, Holgerson and Gundy tweaked it again to fit our offensive players (esp. lineman). The splits were cut down, run blocking was even moreso emphasised to the WRs, and more of a vertical passing game. O-Lineman coach Joe Wickline, and RB coach, as well as QB Brandon Weeden have had every kind of blitz thrown at them the last 2 years that one could bring. Play caller and Off Coord Todd Monken as well as QB Weeden live by the theory "take what the D will give you". Yes the D can disguise to a point how they are going to attack, but you have to guess right, or you could be lining up to defend an extra point on the next play from scrimmage.

It's true that LSU's O isn't as bad as what they showed Monday night, but for the most part it's pretty inept in today's time.

 

[JSchroeder]

If 105th in passing yards in inept, what is that 107th overall defense of OSU?

You are acting like the only thing you care about is a strong passing game.  Like the rest of the Big XII you vastly overestimate the importance of it.  The last time a team with a top 25 passing attack won the national title was USC in 2004 with 266 ypg.  Even with the explosion of spread offenses over the past decade, it is still more likely that the national champion will have passing attacks that are at best 40th in the nation.

On the flip side, each of the past five national champions has had top 15 rushing offenses.  The worst rushing attack for a national champion in the past decade has been 37th overall.

It’s called football and despite the terror that guys like Mike Leach and Hal Mumme might have unleashed on it, playing defense and having a solid running game are still what wins the game.  It's why the SEC has won six straight national titles, that's what they play.  Hell, the last time a Big XII team won the national title, it was a Texas team that ranked 3rd in the nation in rushing.

Your team was built to win the run and gun Big XII, not a national championship. 

 

[OKshorthorn]

Jeff. Are you a Texas A&M fan?

 

[pjkjr4]

Yes, a strong passing game is important in this day and time, but even moreso important is BALANCE on offense. If you can do that, you can keep an aggressive defense honest. How'd that ruching game for LSU work out the other night? What was the biggest part of Alabama's offensive success? Alabama realized that running the ball wouldn't work. It put them in more predictable 2nd and 3rd down situations.

Yes I agree that you can win with a stellar defense, but equally important is above average QB play. Defense may very well win championships, but you also need an offense to put points on the board in the mean-time.

quote author=Jeff_Schroeder link=topic=35984.msg315812#msg315812 date=1326311280]
If 105th in passing yards in inept, what is that 107th overall defense of OSU?

You are acting like the only thing you care about is a strong passing game.  Like the rest of the Big XII you vastly overestimate the importance of it.  The last time a team with a top 25 passing attack won the national title was USC in 2004 with 266 ypg.  Even with the explosion of spread offenses over the past decade, it is still more likely that the national champion will have passing attacks that are at best 40th in the nation.

On the flip side, each of the past five national champions has had top 15 rushing offenses.  The worst rushing attack for a national champion in the past decade has been 37th overall.

It’s called football and despite the terror that guys like Mike Leach and Hal Mumme might have unleashed on it, playing defense and having a solid running game are still what wins the game.  It's why the SEC has won six straight national titles, that's what they play.  Hell, the last time a Big XII team won the national title, it was a Texas team that ranked 3rd in the nation in rushing.

Your team was built to win the run and gun Big XII, not a national championship. 
[/quote]

 

[OKshorthorn]

LSU's adversity was on par or higher than OSU's? Do explain?

I'll give my $0.02. Kragthorpe is a good dude, and has had a run of bad luck lately. But he had only been on staff 8 months when they found out about Parkinson's. Glenn Spencer has been on staff for 4 years and his wife died prior to the Tulsa game, those players knew Angela well, they had seen her often and she cared for them greatly. A 18-22 year old kid removed from their parents that has someone who has been involved in their lives from the time they stepped on campus dying is pretty emotional.

I have never said this or used this as an excuse for the Iowa State game, and i'm not using it as an excuse right now, we should have won the game... but since you bring it up I will say this. There isn't a person outside of the Oklahoma State family that fully understands the closeness our university and community have. I heard an ESPN anaylst say that he doubted many members of the football team had even met Kurt Budke or Miranda Serna. OSU's campus is small, they share many of the same facilites. Those players knew both of them. Those players have friends and girlfriends that play on the womens basketball team. Can you imagine yourself being in Ames, Iowa, waking up on gameday and getting the news from a close friend or girlfriend that their coach, their mentor, and friend had died in a plane crash. Can you imagine spending the entire day texting and talking with friends and family back home about the tradegy. Then after all of that try and get emotional ready for a football game that immediately after you will have to board a plane and fly home. A lot of those kids had never flown before coming to OSU, don't you think there was a little anxiety about boarding a plane 24 hours after a person you know died in a plane crash?

I'm sorry if you feel like guys getting suspended for a game because they got into a bar fight is more adversity than that.

 

[JSchroeder]

Redwine Cattle, yes, A&M fan.  No, I didn’t bring it up, DL did.  I you want to play on emotions to make a point, perhaps the 1999 Texas game is why I don’t think that’s any sort of an excuse to lose a game like that.  National power and ESPN consipiracy or not, there has never been a participant in the national title game that lost to a 6-7 team.

pjkjr4, I’ve asked a couple times now.  If 105th in passing yards in inept, what is that 107th overall defense of OSU?

No, a strong passing attack is not important to winning a national championship in this day and time and the stats of the national champions back me up on that rather strongly just like every holistic method of comparing the two teams does.  You guys keep clinging to passing stats because it's the only place OSU has a clear cut advantage.  Unfortunately, it's also the fool's gold of college football.

And I hate to say "gotta go" (I like disucssions that don't turn personal) but I gotta go to my brother's to head to Denver tomorrow.

 

[OKshorthorn]

You said several times that there has never been a national championship game participant that lost to a 6-7 team. We get it. Has there ever been a national championship game participant that lost to the other game participant earlier in the same year?

 

[DLD]

Redwine Cattle, yes, A&M fan.  No, I didn’t bring it up, DL did.  I you want to play on emotions to make a point, perhaps the 1999 Texas game is why I don’t think that’s any sort of an excuse to lose a game like that.  National power and ESPN consipiracy or not, there has never been a participant in the national title game that lost to a 6-7 team.

Well, since I'm the closest thing to a DL in this conversation, I'm guessing you mean me.  Just to clarify, I said yes, OSU lost their shot at the national championship when they lost to Iowa State.  I said that I clearly understand that the reasons that we as OSU fans feel contributed to the loss don't mean anything to anybody else, hence "it's different when it happens to you".

Yes, I said that ESPN was shamelessly promoting the LSU-Bama re-match for the championship right after their regular season game (actually during it, if I recall).  Before it was even sure OSU was a even a contender.  I didn't mean that I felt there was some kind of vendetta against OSU in particular.  I did mean that the favorites were made clear early on, and they stayed there.

And while I'm at it, I didn't say a thing about a championship series or who was for or against it.  All I meant was that two teams from the same conference and division playing each other for the national championship doesn't really prove they're any better than anybody else. Once again, I guess that's different to you if it's your conference.

Jeff, have a safe trip and a good time in Denver.