Best Heifers

[Jill]

I'm going to have to agree with GONEWEST on this one, if you would sell an awesome cow for calving 21 days late you are not in business to make a profit unless you had someone waiting to pay you big money for that cow. 
We give heifers a little more slack then we do cows, we haul pretty heavy and it is sometimes hard to settle them when they are constantly on the move.  I can't speak for anyone else, but we haven't had any trouble once those heifers go into production getting them bred back as cows.  Get a thorough exam done, find out where you're at and go from there.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

There is a HUGE difference in the types of people reading and posting on this and any other board. For some it is a hobby and the cost of doing extra things to get last years show heifer bred is really not an issue. Some run a nice small herd but work a job in town to pay the bills and the cows are a nice added income, they may or may not go to the extra exspence to get that heifer bred. Some of us make our living from our cattle and aside from making sure the heifer isn't cystic don't go to alot of extra time or exspence before we ship her. Last year I shipped the dam of our high selling bull the previous year because she was open, this spring I shipped a heifer that we had shown as a calf and did very well with because she didn't milk enough to maintain her calf without supplementation. Open cows/heifers and ones that won't raise a good calf cost me money, they don't make me money. I'll raise a better one next time and other than the show pictures on the wall never give the other one a second thought. RW

 

[CPL]

"I honestly hope your best heifer won't breed" That is uncalled for.

I agree "that" was uncalled for.

But, her statement after that was not. There is a difference between the Show Ring and Reality... and in some cases its fairly big.

I understand that the Gilbert is a younger man with only a few cows. I am too, and I've only got 3 with two of them under the age of 15 months.

My post was to defend the culling process. Cows that don't breed don't stay. That is simple enough and that was Show Heifer's argument. Now, could she have said it better/nicer- absolutely.

I do realize that in some cases (especially when the herd is small) rules can bend. Right now I have a yearling heifer that might not get bred this year because I don't have a Low BW bull to breed her to. Now in 10-15 years, that will not happen, at least in my herd.

I think this thread started out as a misunderstanding between to totally different operations (Show Heifers & Gilberts). Does that mean Show Heifer wasn't offering useful advice to someone with an operation similar to his/hers? Of course not.

Gilbert, I hope your heifer breeds and will turn a profit for you. And I hope this thread hasn't discouraged you.

 

[red]

very good point CPL! Big difference between my little herd & the farm's cows. They'll cull a lot faster than I do.

Red

 

[KYsteer]

I completely understand your pain.  When I was a kid I saved my money and paid a lot of money for a really nice reg. yearling heifer.  We tried everything in the book to get her to breed, but just had no luck.  Luckily there was a breeding guarantee so we were reimbursed the purchase price, but only after exhausting every option we had.  Give everything you can think of a try, but it would probably be best to cut your losses at some point and just move on if this heifer does not respond.  If she is cystic then she will come into heat every 3-5 days, but not breed.  You can give her a shot of GnRH to help release the CL, but you did not describe these symptoms, so that is probably not the problem.  Good Luck though.

 

[kanshow]

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do with her Gilbert! 

 

[Doc]

Gonewest , well put!!!!

 

[OH Breeder]

Gilbert- are you sure she isn't cystic? We had one like that several years ago that after the 2nd vet's exam found she was.

We also bought a heifer 2 years ago that was AI'd about 5 times, thrown out w/ the bull & never conceived. Sometimes you do need to cut your losses.

Red

We also had one that was cystic. We treated with hormones and it worked.

 

[Show Heifer]

I am NOT going apologize for my statement. RW is right. There is a huge difference in what our goals are.
"I honestly hope your best heifer won't breed" was/is misinterpertped by all of you. If taken in context of what followed it meant "She isn't your best heifer if she won't breed. Even an inferior heifer that isn't as pretty is better than a perfectly pretty heifer that won't breed."  It WAS NOT meant to say "I hope you best heifer is infertile." Big difference.

Fertility may not be highly hertiable, but, why breed ANY problems, no matter now small? I guess that is a difference of a herd paying for bills, and a herd for a trophy. Neither is bad, just different.

And I still have not received an apology from bccc for the personal threat he/she sent me in a PM. I am sick and tired of everyone that is not eloquent in words feeling threatened when someone disagrees with their opinion and then PM'ing them with personal and bodily threats. How childish. If you can not handle differences in opinions then you need to get off the computer. This is, the last time I checked, AMERICA, where differences of opinions create discussion, NOT threats.
Some folks have PM'd me because they are afraid they are going to get attacked also. This site if for the exchange of ideas and opinions. If you want them all to agree, you are indeed a small minded, dependent person.

jill, where did you come up with 21 days late? This heifer has had at minimum 4 cycles to get bred. That is a minimum of 84 days. So at the very least this heifer is already 3 months late.....

I really hope the heifer becomes the highest producing cow in the world. I hope she has a calf and it wins every major show in the world. But...the odds are not in his favor. And I have never been known for being a chearleader. "I'm not going to eat a rainbow, so I can poo butterflies." I stole that quote, but find it fits.

 

[gilbert07]

yea well some of us arent just handed tons of money or what  not....my parents are hard working ppl...they always get the bills paid on time...im just a young adult working hard trying to do the best i can...i cant just go out and buy calves for thousands of dollars...i pay my own insurance, truck payment,all the supplies for my calves, working 8 dollars an hour doing construction...so for all those ppl shoviing this in my face you can just keep to yourself...i may not have the best cows, but i do care about them...im not one that buys them and just lets them starve to death...im out working hard for my money and trying to do the best that i can supporting myself and my animals.

 

[SKF]

A few of our better cows did not breed the first year as yearling heifers but I gave them another chance and I am glad I did.  My experience has been once we've gotten the first calf they never had any more problems.  To me personally I have to much into our heifers to give up  but we also do this as a hobby not for a living. If I was doing this for a living I might not be so willing to give a second chance. 

 

[Doc]

gilbert, hang in there! I know it can be tough at times, but hopefully everything will work out for you. I've been in your shoes before & I understand you trying to give her every chance you can!! (thumbsup)

 

[gilbert07]

shes going to the sell barn....im just gonna buy another one this october or hopefully sooner

 

[chambero]

yea well some of us arent just handed tons of money or what  not....my parents are hard working ppl...they always get the bills paid on time...im just a young adult working hard trying to do the best i can...i cant just go out and buy calves for thousands of dollars...i pay my own insurance, truck payment,all the supplies for my calves, working 8 dollars an hour doing construction...so for all those ppl shoviing this in my face you can just keep to yourself...i may not have the best cows, but i do care about them...im not one that buys them and just lets them starve to death...im out working hard for my money and trying to do the best that i can supporting myself and my animals.

I honestly don't think anyone tried to insult you.  I just now realized how some were interpreting Show Heifer's comment.  I alway thought she meant something along the line of "if she won't breed she can't be your best heifer" - not wishing ill will by saying she hoped something bad happened.  She comes across as extremely opinionated (I suspect she agrees with that assessment) and I whole lot of us might disagree with her sometimes, but I don't remember her ever wishing ill will on someone, especially a young person.

A lot of people get bad advice from folks hocking show cattle.  Some people have seen that happen enough that they try to make sure to counter it. I think those that suggested selling her if she continues to not breed were hoping to help you by not encouraging you to throw good money after bad.  It has nothing to do with how pretty they are, some females just aren't very fertile - just like the fact that a $20,000 steer can stick his feet up in the air dead just about as easy as a sorry old roping steer out in the pasture.

We all ought to quit looking for reasons to get mad at someone and reread what we type before we hit the "post" button.

 

[shortyisqueen]

Gilbert, Is this a heifer you bought? If so, maybe you want to consider talking to whoever you bought her from before she goes to the sale barn. They might be willing to exchange her for another heifer or at least give you a credit for next fall. It would certainly make sense to do this from a breeder's perspective for someone such as yourself who is just starting out.

I'm not sure that fertility isn't a trait that is highly heritable. What Gonewest stated, that infertile cattle would weed themselves out if it was highly heritable trait only is true to some extent. This is assuming all cattle are either fertile or not fertile, without any gray area. Yes, the REALLY infertile ones generally weed themselves and their progeny out right away, but what about the ones who are sort of infertile, but can have a calf every once in a while if they are fed a bucket of grain. These 'sort of' infertile ones are passing on as much infertility as they carried to all their offspring. I've very rarely gotten a heifer calf off of a cow that was 'so so' in the fertility department to be a bang on producer. Cows that are open by the age of four, in my experience, have daughters that are open by the age of four or can't get bred at all. If a cow passes on as much fertility as she has to all her offspring, this sounds highly heritable to me.

Also, this assumes that, if fertility is not very heritable that it would take a high degree of infertility to breed that out of a so-so female. This has not been the case in my experience either. If you breed a really low fertility bull to a okay fertility cow, it takes about one cross for the fertility of the offspring to be at zip.

I've been in your boat and bought heifers that didn't breed or were open way too early as cows. Two purebred heifers in particular I bought that were open at ages three and four, and none of their daughters worked. I should have done my homework and looked up their dams record of production on the breed association website, which I didn't do until after I shipped them to the plant. Both females had mothers that calved in February the first year, and then slipped a month each consecutive year with their registered offspring, and then missed a year every once in a while, a year I'm assuming they had no calf in. If I had looked this up before waving my hand, I could have known that these heifers were not right for my program. Hindsight is always 20/20 of course, but the heifers being open should have came as no surprise.

The important thing to remember is that this happens to the best of us. I don't think there is one member here who hasn't experienced the disappointment of having something terrible happen to a really good one. These lessons are tough, but keep your chin up and best of luck to you next time around.

 

[GONEWEST]

Well, shorty, no need to wonder about the heritability  of fertility traits, I just used that as a practical reason that you can LOGICALLY assume fertility isn't very heritable. But just so you don't wonder, the SCIENTIFIC FACTS are as follows.

In beef cows conception rate and calving interval are .05 (percent) heritable. Traits such as Ribeye area, scrotal circumference or yearling weight are like 12 times more heritable and can be selected for with the expectations of making improvements. You can measure  expected genetic progress by multiplying selection intensity by the heritability  of the trait times the standard deviation for that trait. If any of these three components are low, genetic progress through selection will be very slow. Because fertility is obviously a very important economic trait, you may give it more weight in the equation than it's standard value. So if you DOUBLE it it's still LOWWWWWWWWWWW.

In dairy cattle traits measured like, days to first breeding, times bred to get pregnant are between .02 and .04. Milk yield, fat content and protein content are 15-25 times more heritable.

Those numbers are off the top of my head, but i am sure they are close. If you don't believe me, look it up. Those are facts. So you  don't have to wonder. You can be sure. Like the sun WILL come up in the east and set in the west, it's a FACT.

 

[chambero]

Well, shorty, no need to wonder about the heritability  of fertility traits, I just used that as a practical reason that you can LOGICALLY assume fertility isn't very heritable. But just so you don't wonder, the SCIENTIFIC FACTS are as follows.

In beef cows conception rate and calving interval are .05 (percent) heritable. Traits such as Ribeye area, scrotal circumference or yearling weight are like 12 times more heritable and can be selected for with the expectations of making improvements. You can measure  expected genetic progress by multiplying selection intensity by the heritability  of the trait times the standard deviation for that trait. If any of these three components are low, genetic progress through selection will be very slow. Because fertility is obviously a very important economic trait, you may give it more weight in the equation than it's standard value. So if you DOUBLE it it's still LOWWWWWWWWWWW.

In dairy cattle traits measured like, days to first breeding, times bred to get pregnant are between .02 and .04. Milk yield, fat content and protein content are 15-25 times more heritable.

Those numbers are off the top of my head, but i am sure they are close. If you don't believe me, look it up. Those are facts. So you  don't have to wonder. You can be sure. Like the sun WILL come up in the east and set in the west, it's a FACT.

I would love to see some vets chime in on the heritability of fertility issue, but genetic heritability of complex characteristics in breeding in general isn't nearly as exact a science as the numbers you quoted.  We use sonogram data now to buy bulls when possible - looking specifically for things like larger ribeyes.  We hope that calves out of those bulls have a better chance to have bigger ribeyes.  I bet you if we were more rigorous in culling cows that calve late that in a few years we'd have a higher % calf crop each year.

I don't have scientific journal entries ready to quote, but from my own observations and lots of passed down logic from a lot of ranchers I respects strongly suggests that fertility is highly heritable.  At least I feel a lot safer in our operation working on the assumption that it is.  Almost every time in the past I've tried to buck the old timers on issues like these I've been humbled.

 

[knabe]

the reason fertility may not show up as highly heritable is the simple fact that people have been shipping open heifers and sterile bulls for centuries.  if one were to do a simple experiment and actually compare two sample populations, one with a typical rebreed % versus one that has all kinds of problems, the one with problems would no doubt show to have extremely good heritability, and the bad ones would be weeded out rather rapidly.  all the 0.05 number means to me is that the mean has shifted to one end, and it's difficult to see the variability because the data points are too close together.  if one used a log scale, some more of these fertility traits might show even more progress.

to me, this is like humans using too many c-sections and fertility drugs.  if we keep doing that, our population will have increased maintenance issues.  not that we need any help in that area, we are almost commun......
db cooper.

 

[Jill]

Gilbert, this thread went way off course and I apologize for that, it really hasn't helped you with your problem. 
I would suggest that you find a mentor in your area that has a lot of cattle knowledge that is willing to help you get your herd started.  If you have had problems with this twice now in a short period of time chances are that something is wrong, whether it be mineral, condition, health or whatever, you need to treat the problem not the symptoms.  The people on this board can give advice in what we would do in our herds, but we don't have ANY knowledge of your herd, do not take anything any of us say as gospel, advice is free and it doesn't cost any of us a thing, it could however be very costly for you if you take to heart something that wouldn't apply in your herd.
All of us have made mistakes, we had a 5 figure cow that looked great on paper that went to the sale barn because she didn't have enough milk to fill a thimble, we had a 9000 dollar heifer we put in the freezer, Trans Ova couldn't even get an egg out of her.  Regardless of the type of operation you have, these cattle have to be productive when they go out to work, I guess what I'm trying to say is, only you can determine what is right for your heifer, please take what you read, apply what you can and throw the rest out.

 

[garybob]

Gilbert, Is this a heifer you bought? If so, maybe you want to consider talking to whoever you bought her from before she goes to the sale barn. They might be willing to exchange her for another heifer or at least give you a credit for next fall. It would certainly make sense to do this from a breeder's perspective for someone such as yourself who is just starting out.

I'm not sure that fertility isn't a trait that is highly heritable. What Gonewest stated, that infertile cattle would weed themselves out if it was highly heritable trait only is true to some extent. This is assuming all cattle are either fertile or not fertile, without any gray area. Yes, the REALLY infertile ones generally weed themselves and their progeny out right away, but what about the ones who are sort of infertile, but can have a calf every once in a while if they are fed a bucket of grain. These 'sort of' infertile ones are passing on as much infertility as they carried to all their offspring. I've very rarely gotten a heifer calf off of a cow that was 'so so' in the fertility department to be a bang on producer. Cows that are open by the age of four, in my experience, have daughters that are open by the age of four or can't get bred at all. If a cow passes on as much fertility as she has to all her offspring, this sounds highly heritable to me.

Also, this assumes that, if fertility is not very heritable that it would take a high degree of infertility to breed that out of a so-so female. This has not been the case in my experience either. If you breed a really low fertility bull to a okay fertility cow, it takes about one cross for the fertility of the offspring to be at zip.

I've been in your boat and bought heifers that didn't breed or were open way too early as cows. Two purebred heifers in particular I bought that were open at ages three and four, and none of their daughters worked. I should have done my homework and looked up their dams record of production on the breed association website, which I didn't do until after I shipped them to the plant. Both females had mothers that calved in February the first year, and then slipped a month each consecutive year with their registered offspring, and then missed a year every once in a while, a year I'm assuming they had no calf in. If I had looked this up before waving my hand, I could have known that these heifers were not right for my program. Hindsight is always 20/20 of course, but the heifers being open should have came as no surprise.

The important thing to remember is that this happens to the best of us. I don't think there is one member here who hasn't experienced the disappointment of having something terrible happen to a really good one. These lessons are tough, but keep your chin up and best of luck to you next time around.

Bump