Black noses on Shorthorn

[GM]

Not sure about the 50's or 60's, but it seems more likely that the black noses from the 70's and 80's would stem from Holstein or Chi as opposed to Irish Shorthorns.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Guys, we are olny debating the matter, not is necessary start another war!
I heard that on 60's a Calrossie bull was black nose also, pre irish and pre new typw. So can assume that is an inhereted character that is keep on shadows due register standard.
Also not call none old breeder as dishonest due burning noses, I will not do it by personal criteria. And we all know that many famous breeders were dishonest enough inserting disqualifing genetics on breed on early decades, the difference is that some guys like some ones and another guys not like some ones....but we know enough breeders on past that had - little honesty as well.
Another point...the Shortorn breed was damage in many points, some guys will tell - performance is the way...OK, agree, so not claim for many purity on cattle....other will claim that character is the way...ok, also agree, but not claim that have not enough performance bulls on breed.
The reality is that many shi# was make on breed for a quick profity, now we are receiving the bill.

 

[Okotoks]

Black, grey and smutty noses have been around since the breed started registering cattle. It was selected against. Some of the original animals recorded in the first herd books were described as grey, yellow, yellow flecked and couple had markings similar to herefords. Some of these were behind very influential animals but I have no idea if those genes were eliminated due to selection pressure. There was a time in herefords where the favorite color was a darker red with what was referred to as a feather neck. Later the yellower colour became popular and in recent years the selection for pigmentation around the eyes has resulted in some having red patches. In Angus the selection was away from the red carriers until the Red Angus emerged in the late 60's, early 70's. Also in Angus white ahead of the udder was never allowed and today it seems to be acceptable. Some of these changes may be from outside blood but I would guess some is just selection pressure. In earlier shorthorns the red and white and the light roans were common but selection almost eliminated those colours in beef shorthorns during the 40's, 50's and 60's. We also have occasionally got a dark nose from the Deerpark Improver 2 bloodline and sometimes it pops up in a calf that has nothing in the close up pedigree with dark noses.

 

[Okotoks]

Three years ago, I had the good fortune to visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary of Calrossie, in Scotland.  Donald was in his 80s but his memory was crystal clear yet. His father and grandfather had leading roles in the history of the Shorthorn breed in Scotland. In our discussion, he said that there has been many animals over the years that had questionable genetics in their makeup. We like to think of all these cattle that originated from Scotland, as being pure as fresh fallen snow, but according to Donald McGillvary, there were questionable genetics in all breeds. He also said that because the Shorthorn and Angus breeds were developed in close proximity, that there was some cross over between the breeds in the early stages of the breeds . Some of this was accidental and some was intentional by dishonest breeders who only wanted to gain success with their animals.
Cattle from the Irish strain of Shorthorns have an even higher chance of black noses. Deerpark Improver had a black nose and black noses have appeared from many other Irish animals.
I am also not sure how the black nose is inherited, as it can appear from parents who have no black noses for many many generations in their pedigree. I had an ET calf about 5 years ago that had a black nose. This calf was DNA parentage verified to parents with no appendix in their pedigree. There was some Irish breeding 7 generations back but the particular Irish animals did not have black noses.

   

There is clearly a line in the above quote where you stated that Deerpark Improver had a black nose. I have never seen a Deerpark animal with any shape or form of a black nose. All of the attached pics of deeply bred Deerpark cattle which were prominent in the U.S.A. and Canada don't have any hint of black either.
[/quote]
We definitely have gotten smutty to black noses from some of the bulls we used with Deerpark Improver 2 in them. The use of Irish really increased our birth weights as well but certainly didn't cause calving difficulties. In fact the irish influenced seemed very good for calving ease. Probably just as well that Deerpark Improver didn't have a black nose, introducing TH and Digital Sublaxation (DS) to North America is enough!

 

[Doc]

Deerpark Improver did not have a black nose himself, but he left many offspring that did. I always thought the chance of getting a calf with a black nose was much higher from the Improver line than from the Leader line.

JIT, You are right on old Improver. One of that stands out the most was a daughter , AF Shannon Margie 027 (black nosed Margie, as she was known as) . Cedar Crest Farms in TN bought her from Aldens. She had a dtr, Margie's Designer 7044 that Al Bullis in TN owned. 7044 produced several good herd bulls but she would definitely produce offspring with black noses or an occasional heavy black hairs in the face, tail or even on the side.

 

[justintime]

I agree with okotoks that black noses in Shorthorns goes back to the beginning of the breed. I have breed magazines that go back into the 40s and breed registry journals that go back to 1886. In the front of the breed journals from 1886 to the 1930s, the annual meeting minutes for the Canadian Shorthorn Association are included. When you read these minutes, there was often mention of traits that should be watched closely, such as black noses, spotted coat color and white socks. While you could still register Shorthorns with these characteristics, they definitely did not sell for as much. There is also mention in one set of minutes of a concern about the polled Shorthorns that some breeders were raising. It was felt at that time that these polled cattle were inferior quality and that they should be infused with the superior horned cattle in the breed. Interesting how times change!

 

[JTM]

That picture of Improve 2nd looks like a black nose that somebody took a baked potato to... (lol)

So where is the topic talking about the ASA allowing black shorthorns as high as 15/16ths? Now that's a good topic to discuss. Can somebody point me to it? <rock>

 

[caledon101]

I was the fool that launched that little "black shorthorn" rocket a month or so ago......and, you know what? All of the discussions and debates around hair or skin colour and purity are simply destructive in my opinion. A complete waste of time.
Every herd book has a margin of error in it's accuracy and, there was a time when blood typing and DNA verification didn't exist as a tool to audit breeders. Mistakes happen in breeding.....unintentional or otherwise. There's no such thing as "100%" pure Shorthorn. Even a bar of gold is only claimed to be .999 pure.
I don't care what colour a Shorthorn is. It could be 5 different colours for all I care. There are far more important issues for the breed to focus on beyond something possibly having a black nose. Calving ease would be one of them.
And yes I agree.... Damn cruel and inhumane to deliberately burn an animal that trusts the humans that handle it. Someone doing that should be banned for life from the breed association.

 

[justintime]

I am afraid it stems before the 60's - Grandpa and great Uncle Eldon showed in the19 30 and 40's . My father tells stories of using a steaming hot baked potato on the nose . The scarred tissue was pulled off show morning - "bright pink noses placed higher in class". The Lavender cow family was moved from the middle of the class to the top for that reason alone.
[/quote]

I can hardly imagine anyone doing this as well. I had a bull here last winter who had pulled his nose ring out a year before. In a very cold winter storm he got slight frostbite in the tissue where the ring was pulled out. I saw how painful that was to that bull, and he hardly ate anything for several days even though I treated the frost bite area several times a day.
This may have helped them get a higher placing but it sounds like one of the cruelest and unethical practices I have ever heard of.

 

[frostback]

Sounds like there are quality issues with judges no matter what era it is. If they were picking on nose colour and not quality.

 

[caledon101]

Agreed. Any judge who would place an animal lower in a class due to it's nose colour is nothing more than a follower of fad and fashion.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Not agree. A judgement is based on what judge see on that day specifically and based on what judge believe to be the ideal for him. If on judge mind the black nose is not good, he is right to send the animal for back. This is called free choice!

If a judge from a country were black nose isn't accept and this is "strange" for him, naturally the animal will to be back on line.

So what think about cow killers, many times described here, that are widely used on US. They are also fashion bulls that will directly affect the productive aims with a non live calf.

Some thinks are controversial, depending of side where you is looking!

 

[frostback]

.

So what think about cow killers, many times described here, that are widely used on US. They are also fashion bulls that will directly affect the productive aims with a non live calf.

Those cow killers that some keep speaking of, have no personal experience with those genetics and are only preaching what they feel is happening. Take most of what you read here with a grain of salt. Some try to sway with fear and theory, with NO proof.

 

[caledon101]

EVERY breed has heroes and villians when it comes to calving ease, disposition, performance and so on. There isn't a breed out there than can claim otherwise. Demonizing Shorthorns is unfair.

Purebred breeders have the unenviable task and responsibility of trying new things and taking much greater risks in the pursuit of improvement and advancement. Progressive purebred breeders literally seek risk and the commercial man is averse to it.
We all have our own personal tolerance for risk. My view? If you aren't living on the edge.....then you are probably taking up too much space.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

.

So what think about cow killers, many times described here, that are widely used on US. They are also fashion bulls that will directly affect the productive aims with a non live calf.

Those cow killers that some keep speaking of, have no personal experience with those genetics and are only preaching what they feel is happening. Take most of what you read here with a grain of salt. Some try to sway with fear and theory, with NO proof.

Well I only describe a designation widely used here! If they are not, why so many people use this designation!
Yes, not experience with and never will have as well. Fortunatelly my calves born with 28 to 35 kg, not is necessary use this kind genetics.
Finally my cattle is profitable due to be free of this genetics.
Lucky with your cattle.  (thumbsup)

 

[RyanChandler]

Sounds like there are quality issues with judges no matter what era it is. If they were picking on nose colour and not quality.

Quality is only perceived within the parameters set forth by BREED STANDARDS AND CHARACTERISTICS.  Black noses aren't a characteristic of shorthorns.  I don't care how many animals are mentioned throughout history that have had black noses.  All those references do is validate genetic infusion from another breed.

BREEDS, noun;
a stock of animals or plants within a species having a DISTINCTIVE APPEARANCE and typically having been developed by deliberate selection.

 

[justintime]

Sounds like there are quality issues with judges no matter what era it is. If they were picking on nose colour and not quality.

Quality is only perceived within the parameters set forth by BREED STANDARDS AND CHARACTERISTICS.  Black noses aren't a characteristic of shorthorns.  I don't care how many animals are mentioned throughout history that have had black noses.  All those references do is validate genetic infusion from another breed.

BREEDS, noun;
a stock of animals or plants within a species having a DISTINCTIVE APPEARANCE and typically having been developed by deliberate selection.

Ryan.... I guarantee that black noses ( not including the ones from appendix sources) go back to the very foundation of the breed. If you read some of Duncan Marshall's book " Shorthorn Cattle in Canada which was printed in 1932, and is a history of the Shorthorn breed in Canada from the first importations in 1832, to 1932, he makes reference to some black nosed animals making the trip over. He states that the black nose occurs at a relatively low incidence as breeders select against it, however, it is still occuring. Some Irish importations have increased this again.

 

[frostback]

Sounds like there are quality issues with judges no matter what era it is. If they were picking on nose colour and not quality.

Quality is only perceived within the parameters set forth by BREED STANDARDS AND CHARACTERISTICS.  Black noses aren't a characteristic of shorthorns.  I don't care how many animals are mentioned throughout history that have had black noses.  All those references do is validate genetic infusion from another breed.

BREEDS, noun;
a stock of animals or plants within a species having a DISTINCTIVE APPEARANCE and typically having been developed by deliberate selection.

Do you have proof? Sounds like it has been happening for a long time. How long back is far enough to be a breed characteristic?

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

I'm becoming enough!

Why here in SP, almost always, when a person shows a different view point to another, there is a tendency to aggression by those who have divergent points!

For all here....people show different view points, as they live in different enviroments and need different genetics. If my one isn't the right one, maybe your one also is not!

I'm on this forum to discuss matters that are unknown to me and learn with it, or to try to help some people with my experiences in livestock.

I will say that I am being well educated not exposing what I really think about some topics or about some people that come here to talk about their ideas.

 

[frostback]

I just asked questions to someone who made a statement. Not sure how that is so bad. Kinda doing what you just said doesn't happen, in trying to think about new views. Maybe the black nose is a mutation. Just like polled was way back when but the polled thing was seen as good and bred for. Was the black seen as bad and just avoided? Could it have become the norm if bred for in the 30s like is was reported to be seen?
Guess ill stay away from shorthorn threads.