Black Shorthorns

[aj]

They currently pay for marbling and not tenderness. But if you could aim those tenderness cattle at a branded beef endpoint......you might have something going.

 

[librarian]

Growing up in the Dr Strangelove era gave me little confidence in the future of civilization, but it seems we haven't returned to subsistence living- yet. So, my first case scenario, feral cattle repopulating the recovering Savannah, may take more than 100 years.

Meanwhile, after reading ( attempting to read) this paper today, I think breeds, as we know them, will only be genomic resources, not populations utilized for commercial beef production. The beef of the future will be harvested from composites zypped and snypped together from mutations that increase efficiency and carcass quality...tenderness being the carcass trait emphasized since flavor has already almost been forgotten. Color will be valuable insofar as it increases heat tolerance, and black does not perform well in that regard. Red, however, is advantageous for heat tolerance. Maybe all the future cattle will be roan.
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fgene.2015.00167/full#
An interpretive review of selective sweep studies in Bos taurus cattle populations: identification of unique and shared selection signals across breeds

 

[caledon101]

I've never really understood the devotion to specific hair coat colors apart from the few, exceptional environmental arguments that might support it.
Broken colored or solid colored....not sure why it should impact values at either the commercial or purebred level.
Purebred breeding takes on an emotional and sometimes even religious dedication.

 

[caledon101]

AJ.....not sure about the ASA but in Canada the national association prohibits the registration of black shorthorns. They are not permitted. I had a beautiful red neck roan female of purebred status and her nose was black pigmented. It certainly didn't matter to me...probably got less sunburn!  But the Shorthorn Police sure noticed it.

 

[aj]

I think that some commercial cows with Charolais and spotted Simmental color need to be bred to a solid color bull because if you don't you can get some orangy or mouse colored calves that currently take a discount in sale barns. That's the great thing about the homozygous black bulls.......they unify color in one cross. Their calves are perceived as more uniform even out of a hines 57 cow herd. I think the black color gives the perception of uniformity. Perception is truth in politics and the sale barn.

 

[caledon101]

I agree AJ....it's just unfortunate that buyers discount or, pay premiums based on hair coat color. As long as the cattle industry has existed, both at commercial and purebred levels, emotion has been applied in decision making. I suppose the people who really benefit are the ones who can accurately predict the next fad or trend and position themselves to benefit.
As soon as a few of the top respected national/international judges get their heads together and decide to punish cattle in the show ring for frame score or whatever, there will be a move to change in that direction. That's exactly what happened a few decades ago when frame score 9's and 10 and beyond dominated the show ring. It didn't take long for exhibitors to adapt.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Wonderful idea....just insert a bit of Belgian Blue...will to be the suitable cattle with weight gain, carcass performance, milk and coat color.

A breed be classified by their color is really interest!

People from upstairs are very funny!
(clapping) <party>

 

[oakview]

I've been busy at work and the county fair, so I just read this thread today.  The best thing I read was the note about Dr. Strangelove.  I just watched that movie (again!) the other night.  What a great show!  The whole movie is very good, but even if it wasn't, the ride on the nuclear bomb is well worth the wait.  What a classic! 

By the way, never is a long time, but I hope I never see black Shorthorns.  Check out the MARC data.  They (Angus) should be coming to us for help.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

I've been busy at work and the county fair, so I just read this thread today.  The best thing I read was the note about Dr. Strangelove.  I just watched that movie (again!) the other night.  What a great show!  The whole movie is very good, but even if it wasn't, the ride on the nuclear bomb is well worth the wait.  What a classic! 

By the way, never is a long time, but I hope I never see black Shorthorns.  Check out the MARC data.  They (Angus) should be coming to us for help.

Do you can link where I can get the MARC data, please.

 

[aj]

I think that you can argue that the Shorthorn breed will have to fight and claw to improve market share. If one was to set up a production sale and offer 20 bulls for sale......I think a few blacks would be a necessity in my area. You have to get people on the farm or in the seats to win their hearts and minds. Just my opinion.

 

[librarian]

Improve Shorthorn predictability for being easy calving, fast growing and high marbling and market share will take care of itself. It's not color that hurts us, to my mind, it's the perception of unpredictability. Black is perceived as predictable for those traits and Shorthorn is perceived as cow killer and slow grower.
The more roans that perform at calving time and in the feedlot, the faster the perception will change. Money talks. ( aj, add "Money Talks" to your other thread, please)

 

[RyanChandler]

Improve Shorthorn predictability for being easy calving, fast growing and high marbling and market share will take care of itself. It's not color that hurts us, to my mind, it's the perception of unpredictability. Black is perceived as predictable for those traits and Shorthorn is perceived as cow killer and slow grower.
The more roans that perform at calving time and in the feedlot, the faster the perception will change. Money talks. ( aj, add "Money Talks" to your other thread, please)

Exactly how I see it as well. 

 

[JTM]

Improve Shorthorn predictability for being easy calving, fast growing and high marbling and market share will take care of itself. It's not color that hurts us, to my mind, it's the perception of unpredictability. Black is perceived as predictable for those traits and Shorthorn is perceived as cow killer and slow grower.
The more roans that perform at calving time and in the feedlot, the faster the perception will change. Money talks. ( aj, add "Money Talks" to your other thread, please)

Amen

Improve Shorthorn predictability for being easy calving, fast growing and high marbling and market share will take care of itself. It's not color that hurts us, to my mind, it's the perception of unpredictability. Black is perceived as predictable for those traits and Shorthorn is perceived as cow killer and slow grower.
The more roans that perform at calving time and in the feedlot, the faster the perception will change. Money talks. ( aj, add "Money Talks" to your other thread, please)

Exactly how I see it as well. 

Amen
Also, let's all remember that "black does not equal marbling anymore". We are on the verge of tipping things in a different direction. If we focus on the few simple words spoken above, maintain marbling and ribeye per 100 through breeding maternal/optimal Shorthorns, not terminal Shorthorns, we can give the cow herd in the United States what it needs.

 

[aj]

Slight problem here. There is no Shorthorn bull identified as a marbling bull. No bull no accuracy.......nothing. How can the breed stay with the angus cattle when have not a clue of which Shorthorn bull to use to maintain or improve marbling. The Angus breed is line breeding for marbling and we can't identify one bull that is a improver and has accuracy.

 

[JTM]

Slight problem here. There is no Shorthorn bull identified as a marbling bull. No bull no accuracy.......nothing. How can the breed stay with the angus cattle when have not a clue of which Shorthorn bull to use to maintain or improve marbling. The Angus breed is line breeding for marbling and we can't identify one bull that is a improver and has accuracy.

Good point AJ. We can't identify one bull and we likely will not. All I know is that I have identified the bull I'm using to create a population of cows in my pastures... He wouldn't qualify in today's criteria of what a Shorthorn bull needs to be. He isn't terminal enough.

 

[RyanChandler]

Slight problem here. There is no Shorthorn bull identified as a marbling bull. No bull no accuracy.......nothing. How can the breed stay with the angus cattle when have not a clue of which Shorthorn bull to use to maintain or improve marbling. The Angus breed is line breeding for marbling and we can't identify one bull that is a improver and has accuracy.

Good point AJ. We can't identify one bull and we likely will not. All I know is that I have identified the bull I'm using to create a population of cows in my pastures... He wouldn't qualify in today's criteria of what a Shorthorn bull needs to be. He isn't terminal enough.

What's your concern as to why "we likely will not" identify a bull?

Do you think the criteria for what a Shorthorn bull needs to be any different than the criteria for Angus?  Angus already have low birth weight, rapid steep growth curves, high marbling populations-- and in numbers.  If Shorthorns are to gain any market share, it's going to be done by developing lines that can compete w/ Angus in all 3, NOT JUST ONE, of these categories. 

 

[Medium Rare]

The posts above reminded me of the reaction Mr. Kaper described when discussing the marbling data situation with his table at the last meeting.

I guess this is the best information we have when looking for a sire to place into a contemporary group? Does anyone know how many scans and/or kills are needed to get a bull to the .5 acc minimum? Is a kill the equivalent of 7 or 8 scans?

 

[RyanChandler]

That information there is worth very little.  The data from 4 of the 8 of those bulls came from the reportings from 1 herd.  One that specializes in EPD engineering at that.  I haven't looked at the numbers but I would wager that very few offspring, maybe a handful?, have been reported out of each of them.  It's more of a 'first mover advantage' type deal: Because essentially no carcass data has been reported on the majority of the population, those individual bulls who do have some carcass data reported, by default, become the trait leaders.  I may run a 12 minute mile but if I'm the only person entered in the race, then not only am I the fastest, but I'm the champ!

Does anyone know how many scans and/or kills are needed to get a bull to the .5 acc minimum? Is a kill the equivalent of 7 or 8 scans?

You can't look at like that.  Depending on the accuracy of the references used in your contemporary group, it might take 1 calf to get .5 or it might take 100.  It's a sliding scale: The higher the level of accuracy the reference sires in the contemporary group are, the less calves it will take.  Inversely, the lower the accuracy of the reference sire, the more calves it will take.

 

[aj]

"Bring the jury in.......we're running behind. If you take stayability..........the deal Bolz tried to get started. It will take 20 years for the Shorthorns to catch up with the Red Angus on this data. I would also state......that if you look down the road say 50 years we could catch up.

 

[librarian]

Genetics work in mysterious ways. There is a 200 plus year history of synergy between Angus and Shorthorn for superior carcass quality. It's like a marbling heterosis.
Framing our relationship with Angus as competitive or a need to catch up is, to me, missing the point. We have something they don't. Together we are stronger. Identify our qualitative quantity and sell it as value added.