Black shorthorns

[RyanChandler]

I got to thinking about this lately. If a 20 year old got into a project like this. I would think in 20 years when they turned 40. They could get their. Start out with 20 Shorthorn cows.........and breed them to the best Angus bulls. Out of those 20 half blood black calves. Keep back one bull calf....or more......and breed them to the females.......even if they were half sibs. Continue on down the road......repeat. Try different angus bulls on the original cows......whatever you need to ........start raising you Shorthorn % eventually.........in 20 years.....seems like you could really accomplish something.

With all due respect aj, this seems to be a fruitless pursuit in my opinion.

That is what commercial breeders do, not seedstock producers!

If you've got 20 years ahead of you to experiment, why not try to improve something good already, rather than try to start something new from scratch. You would have a ten-year jump start from day one!
JMO

(dog)

 

[aj]

What is the definition of a seedstock producer? If you sell no bulls to people in the beef industry.........are you a seedstock producer? If you only sell show heifers to people of that breed, and none to people in the beef industry........are you a seedstock producer. Good topic and interesting debate. I would argue that diversity is good. Maybe 50 years from now the Shorthorn breed will penetrate market share in the beef industry. Is say 25% market share possible in 25 years?

 

[aj]

I guess anybody doing a black Shorthorn deal......consider your self to be publicly shamed.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I guess anybody doing a black Shorthorn deal......consider your self to be publicly shamed.//// XBAR-GO ON THIS SITE-these people sell upwards of 800 to 1000 bulls a year alone Maybe MORE THAN THE SHORTHORN BREED  and every female they have available is sold https://www.pharocattle.com/blog/game-changer  I think that they would qualify as seedstock producers-and they address many i shortcomings of single breeds geared towards rapidly changing real world conditions-WITH THE OBVIOUS CLIMATE CHANGES IN MIND-A mix of Shorthorn and Murry gray on these cattle would probably produce the best carcasses ever recorded with years of bred in doablity that JUST DO NOT EXIST in alot of breeds-And grass fed steers are finishing out at $5000 a head marketed correctly-Me thinks you need to see outside the box-I also think just judging from a few pictures that some of the better cattle you have posted are  your x breds O0

 

[aj]

I was sitting next to a guy at the Oakley salebarn Wed I guess. I kinda knew him from some historical events. I asked him what kind of a bull he used. He said he used a Balancer bull. He didn't call it a composite. Apparently he had no problem using a composite bull. On paper its best to use purebred on purebred to max out heterosis. But other factors also play into decisions. The breeder......color........on and on.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I was sitting next to a guy at the Oakley salebarn Wed I guess. I kinda knew him from some historical events. I asked him what kind of a bull he used. He said he used a Balancer bull. He didn't call it a composite. Apparently he had no problem using a composite bull. On paper its best to use purebred on purebred to max out heterosis. But other factors also play into decisions. The breeder......color........on and on.////  He night have wanted an outcross-which Ive seen work in alot of commercial herds with improvements in traits etc-Although this is much to the chgrine of some seedstock people-IT WORKS-PS-the overwhelming number of people who raise cattle are commercial producers-I like to hear what they have to say-Be surprised how smart some of them can be O0

 

[cbcr]

There are several breeds that are really composites.  Brangus, Brayford, Santa Gertrudis, Beefmaster come immediately to mind.  Many of these breeds are set percentages with most of them being a 5/8 x  3/8.  All of the Continental Breeds have gone black with the Angus influence.  For the most part they have become another Angus based breeds.  How can you have any consistency when there can be such a varying amount of  Angus  from 25 to 75%.  We still feel that the composites allowed by these breed registries should have been required to be a 5/8 x 3/8 cross.

But the greed for revenue was/is more important than preserving the integrity of a breed.

Also with Angus having several recessive traits, most registered breeders would either sell them or put them in their own commercial herds.  Many of these cows also have been used in breeding composites because most of the registries are too lazy to put registration information for animals of other breeds on their papers, instead just listing them as PB of whatever breed.

The Shorthorn breed used to be seen everywhere  and are some very good animals but the "black hide" revolution became the cause for the decline of many breeds.  This is a shame.

Red Durham, Shorthorn Plus or whatever needs to also have set breed percentages.

If breeders wish to develops a Black version then they need to have a different name.  All black Angus Genetics used need to be clean of any recessives.  But, if any black  Angus are dams they should be required to be registered otherwise there could be other breeds end up in this composite.

 

[knabe]

Why not just breed black black angus.


Or why not just register as three way cross somewhere.


Your cattle are many flavors of shorthorn, Maine, red angus and who knows what else.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

The composit breeds deal will register anything-and the black angus already go back to alot of different breeds-The first "pure or full blood" Angus, Maines and a bunch of others evolved from Shorthorns anyhow-So they should start out as half bloods and go from there-although tif the other breed dam or sire is registered it should be listed O0

 

[RyanChandler]

What is the definition of a seedstock producer? If you sell no bulls to people in the beef industry.........are you a seedstock producer? If you only sell show heifers to people of that breed, and none to people in the beef industry........are you a seedstock producer. Good topic and interesting debate. I would argue that diversity is good. Maybe 50 years from now the Shorthorn breed will penetrate market share in the beef industry. Is say 25% market share possible in 25 years?

You've got a farming background- surely you know what seed corn is? Surely you understand why farmers don't just use the harvested corn in their grain bin as seed the following year?  The number of bulls you sell has nothing to do with where your lie in the systematic cross production model.  There's those that raise purebred maternal bulls, those that raise purebred terminal bulls, those that have a maternal breed and source bulls from another purebred maternal breed in order to produce and thus supply the commerical cattleman with genuine f1 momma cows.  If inheritance was taken out of the equation and only those left standing were those who implemented the most profitable model, you'd see the commercial cattleman making the most sound decision by sourcing f1's and breeding them to terminal sires they sourced from purebred breeders who specialize in producing terminal sires.  But the current dynamic where he who inherits the most land is deemed the most knowledgeable by default as 'everyone knows' he with the most cows is the most successful  :

The dynamics of this entire industry are distorted by the primary barrier to entry: land and land costs.    Sure people inherit business in other industries but the reality with those is that if you aren't a keen businessman yourself, you will lose the company in no time.  In a cow calf operation, **** you inherit a few thousand cows your automatically dubbed an expert (So how many cows you got becomes your street cred) and even if your margins are $100 bucks a head, you've made a hell of a living and to the shallow waters of the world, youre king **** and your opinion as far all things cattle should be heeded over the opinions of all others who own less.  Such a sham. 

I guess anybody doing a black Shorthorn deal......consider your self to be publicly shamed.//// XBAR-GO ON THIS SITE-these people sell upwards of 800 to 1000 bulls a year alone Maybe MORE THAN THE SHORTHORN BREED  and every female they have available is sold https://www.pharocattle.com/blog/game-changer  I think that they would qualify as seedstock producers-and they address many i shortcomings of single breeds geared towards rapidly changing real world conditions-WITH THE OBVIOUS CLIMATE CHANGES IN MIND-A mix of Shorthorn and Murry gray on these cattle would probably produce the best carcasses ever recorded with years of bred in doablity that JUST DO NOT EXIST in alot of breeds-And grass fed steers are finishing out at $5000 a head marketed correctly-Me thinks you need to see outside the box-I also think just judging from a few pictures that some of the better cattle you have posted are  your x breds O0

No **** shirlock-- obviously my hybrids themselves have increased performance over their purebred counterparts.  As a seedstock breeder, Im more interested in finding those who are the best producers not those who are the best individual performers.  Its as if you still don't understand this concept that these individuals are not one in the same.  Hybrids breed down.  While they themselves have increased performance, their out cross potential is INFERIOR.    Marketeers continue to capitalize on the dumbed-down inheritance class and on the TEMPORARY effects of heterozygosity.  Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[oakview]

You can have all the information and education you want, but the fact is most of the cattle producers in the area south of us buy a bull if he's black and cheap. 

 

[RyanChandler]

There are several breeds that are really composites.  Brangus, Brayford, Santa Gertrudis, Beefmaster come immediately to mind.  Many of these breeds are set percentages with most of them being a 5/8 x  3/8.  All of the Continental Breeds have gone black with the Angus influence.  For the most part they have become another Angus based breeds.  How can you have any consistency when there can be such a varying amount of  Angus  from 25 to 75%.  We still feel that the composites allowed by these breed registries should have been required to be a 5/8 x 3/8 cross.

But the greed for revenue was/is more important than preserving the integrity of a breed.

Also with Angus having several recessive traits, most registered breeders would either sell them or put them in their own commercial herds.  Many of these cows also have been used in breeding composites because most of the registries are too lazy to put registration information for animals of other breeds on their papers, instead just listing them as PB of whatever breed.

The Shorthorn breed used to be seen everywhere  and are some very good animals but the "black hide" revolution became the cause for the decline of many breeds.  This is a shame.

Red Durham, Shorthorn Plus or whatever needs to also have set breed percentages.

If breeders wish to develops a Black version then they need to have a different name.  All black Angus Genetics used need to be clean of any recessives.  But, if any black  Angus are dams they should be required to be registered otherwise there could be other breeds end up in this composite.

(thumbsup)

Agree with all this-- If you want to breed a black version, great,-- Maurice Boney laid out the framework for this with his development of the the Irish Black.

Buy an Angus bull and turn him out with your Shorthorn Cows. 

Close your herd for the next 40 years, based on the guidance from geneticist Dr Jay Lush and his work on linebreeding: this is the amount of time its going to take you to STABILIZE the genotype and form a new breed.

Fortunately AJ- Im sure CBCR would be happy to work with you establishing a system of records for your new breed

 

[RyanChandler]

You can have all the information and education you want, but the fact is most of the cattle producers in the area south of us buy a bull if he's black and cheap.

Further highlighting my point about the dumbed down inheritance class.  Im tellin ya, there is no other industry IN THE WORLD where business owners have such a low level of understanding of what they're doing.  Grass in front of the cow, bull behind, sales on Thursdays.  Its so wild me to.  I've worked in various sectors and with the exception of agriculture, business owners are MASTERS of their trade.  They are all ardent students within their field.  Experts. 

It's been a few months but we were at a get together and a guy there- mid 50s-  the largest producer in my area that I know of- he runs about 1000 cows. Commented that he had cows that were 7 generations his breeding, right. lol.  He started commenting how he was now running Jersey bulls on his heifers because he had a disastrous experience with Angus bulls that he had paid like 5 grand for at Express in Oklahoma.  Disastrous to the tune of pulling like half the calves. This seemed pretty odd to me-  I chimmed in just curious, knowing Express sells about 500 bulls a years, how were you not able to find some sure fire Angus heifer bulls within the size of offering Express has? I ask him what the pedigrees were and what kind of CE EPD #'s the bulls he used had---

He literally replied that he didn't know what the pedigrees were or how to read EPDs. 

This is someone who owns a 1000 cows. Thousands of acres. This is someone who spent like 50 grand on a double handful of bulls to use on commercial heifers at one of the premier seedstock outfits in the country--- and he has no idea the pedigree of any of them or how to read EPDS!?! 

It's staggering-- this is like the equivalent of the owner of a construction or utility company having no idea how to read a set of plans!  You just do not see stuff like this outside of Ag.  The consequences and inefficiencies that result within the ag industry as a result of these all so common type individuals BEING PLACED in a position to pull strings are continuing to increase.  If uncle sam would step back, I think evolution would correct much of this but the way it is, as long as they can hire a skirt to keep filling out the paperwork over at the farm service agency, I doubt the dynamic will change much.

 

[AZWrightCattle]

You can have all the information and education you want, but the fact is most of the cattle producers in the area south of us buy a bull if he's black and cheap.

Further highlighting my point about the dumbed down inheritance class.  Im tellin ya, there is no other industry IN THE WORLD where business owners have such a low level of understanding of what they're doing.  Grass in front of the cow, bull behind, sales on Thursdays.  Its so wild me to.  I've worked in various sectors and with the exception of agriculture, business owners are MASTERS of their trade.  They are all ardent students within their field.  Experts. 

It's been a few months but we were at a get together and a guy there- mid 50s-  the largest producer in my area that I know of- he runs about 1000 cows. Commented that he had cows that were 7 generations his breeding, right. lol.  He started commenting how he was now running Jersey bulls on his heifers because he had a disastrous experience with Angus bulls that he had paid like 5 grand for at Express in Oklahoma.  Disastrous to the tune of pulling like half the calves. This seemed pretty odd to me-  I chimmed in just curious, knowing Express sells about 500 bulls a years, how were you not able to find some sure fire Angus heifer bulls within the size of offering Express has? I ask him what the pedigrees were and what kind of CE EPD #'s the bulls he used had---

He literally replied that he didn't know what the pedigrees were or how to read EPDs. 

This is someone who owns a 1000 cows. Thousands of acres. This is someone who spent like 50 grand on a double handful of bulls to use on commercial heifers at one of the premier seedstock outfits in the country--- and he has no idea the pedigree of any of them or how to read EPDS!?! 

It's staggering-- this is like the equivalent of the owner of a construction or utility company having no idea how to read a set of plans!  You just do not see stuff like this outside of Ag.  The consequences and inefficiencies that result within the ag industry as a result of these all so common type individuals BEING PLACED in a position to pull strings are continuing to increase.  If uncle sam would step back, I think evolution would correct much of this but the way it is, as long as they can hire a skirt to keep filling out the paperwork over at the farm service agency, I doubt the dynamic will change much.

The same people you describe are the ones that look down and question if you try something different, even if it is backed by study after study. The amount the commercial beef industry has strayed from sound practices in chase of black hide premiums is mind boggling.

 

[knabe]

Maybe try cats?

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Maybe try cats?//// Even a cats got a tail O0

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Like i said check  out the Pharo Cattle site site and read what he has to say-There are 30 years plus of strict documentation on the cattle in fact they are some of the most documented cattle there are-pretty well disproving what you are claiming The cattle breed and do what they are geared for,the females wean off more of thier bpdy weight than any breed cattle anywhere, they are probably the most efficient at any kind of sustenance conversion ANYWHERE, and the BW to Weanibg numbers are phenominal-and have been over 10s of thousands of examples consistently for many years  O0

 

[aj]

Now that's what I'm talking about. Excellent discussion.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

You can have all the information and education you want, but the fact is most of the cattle producers in the area south of us buy a bull if he's black and cheap.

Further highlighting my point about the dumbed down inheritance class.  Im tellin ya, there is no other industry IN THE WORLD where business owners have such a low level of understanding of what they're doing.  Grass in front of the cow, bull behind, sales on Thursdays.  Its so wild me to.  I've worked in various sectors and with the exception of agriculture, business owners are MASTERS of their trade.  They are all ardent students within their field.  Experts. 

It's been a few months but we were at a get together and a guy there- mid 50s-  the largest producer in my area that I know of- he runs about 1000 cows. Commented that he had cows that were 7 generations his breeding, right. lol.  He started commenting how he was now running Jersey bulls on his heifers because he had a disastrous experience with Angus bulls that he had paid like 5 grand for at Express in Oklahoma.  Disastrous to the tune of pulling like half the calves. This seemed pretty odd to me-  I chimmed in just curious, knowing Express sells about 500 bulls a years, how were you not able to find some sure fire Angus heifer bulls within the size of offering Express has? I ask him what the pedigrees were and what kind of CE EPD #'s the bulls he used had---

He literally replied that he didn't know what the pedigrees were or how to read EPDs. 

This is someone who owns a 1000 cows. Thousands of acres. This is someone who spent like 50 grand on a double handful of bulls to use on commercial heifers at one of the premier seedstock outfits in the country--- and he has no idea the pedigree of any of them or how to read EPDS!?! 

It's staggering-- this is like the equivalent of the owner of a construction or utility company having no idea how to read a set of plans!  You just do not see stuff like this outside of Ag.  The consequences and inefficiencies that result within the ag industry as a result of these all so common type individuals BEING PLACED in a position to pull strings are continuing to increase.  If uncle sam would step back, I think evolution would correct much of this but the way it is, as long as they can hire a skirt to keep filling out the paperwork over at the farm service agency, I doubt the dynamic will change much.

The same people you describe are the ones that look down and question if you try something different, even if it is backed by study after study. The amount the commercial beef industry has strayed from sound practices in chase of black hide premiums is mind boggling. /// Absolutely agree with that-and furthers the merit of using cattle that work in different environments-no breed does it all-combining the complimentary characteristics of different cattle achieves alot of that and with "hybrids " like Santa Gartrudis being a 100 year old breed they are probably purer than breed cattle like Angus O0

 

[aj]

The guys who have survived the last 20 to 30 years in the cow calf have done things right. The toughest times were probably the early 80's when alot of people went down. Most of the successful people went to the black hide around here because they did get a premium at the sale barn for them. But the red cow herd is a thing out here now. Some guys love the red angus cow over the blacks. I think it is because the reds are more moderate. There are a bunch of red cattle around Oberlin Ks and Hays Ks.......now adays. You see them come through the sale barns. Solid reds....enough for a semi load......special red angus sale there south of Hays every year. Lacross Ks I think is where the Red Angus special sale is in the fall.