Breed Purity

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aj

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I had a question about a possible problem. Are cattle bloodtyped before shows like Denver? What happens if a bull wins the Shorthorn National champion bull.Syndicate shares are sold.Then its turns out that the bull was sired by say heatseeker. What happens on a deal like this? Or someone buys a bull(presented as a purebred shorthorn bull)....the buyer shows the bull...wins the championship....gets ready to sell semen yhen finds out the bull is sired by Heatseeker. What happens on this deal. Could a bull be typed back to an individual like heetseeker or would he just show foreign blood? I know that there was talk that there were like 7 red Maine Anjou bulls that bloodtyped ok as Shorthorns in the 1970's or what ever(no surprise since the orinal maines were related to Shorthons). What happens if the Champion purebred Simmental bull blood types one quarter Angus. Can they tell on a Simmental bull if the bull is 1-16ths Angus and then differientiate through blood typing it is 1-4 Angus? How about the Angus and Red Angus breed? I always wondered if th would show up in the red angus breed in some show bull cause of something like this. Is their a safegaurd in say the Red Angus breed that say test's a champion Red Angus breed bull for say th....to prevent a line of th Red Angus being developed and then having to clean up the mess later. Just seems like th is something every show breed needs to address to me. The same with the Herfords. How are the Herford looking Maine Anjous handled. Surely association baord members are aware of the potential th diaster in there breed. What are some of the famous cases of cattle being kicked out of herd books.
 

Cattledog

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Well, I think alot of the famous cases in the Angus breed were a little before my time.  However, all I have to do is look at some of the pictures of show cattle from the late 80's to point the finger at some of the dominating bulls in the breed.  I think that there were probably quite a few that had a good share of Chi or Holstein blood flowing through there veins.  Heck, every now and then I see some Angus that make me wonder.....
 

Show Heifer

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Let me start by saying I believe there are no "fullblood = purebred" breeds left in the country.  So with that in mind:

Most breeds have to have the animal DNA'd to be collect for AI use (most syndicate bulls are collects therefore blood typed). The problem comes in on your definition of "pure". Yes, most would agree the angus had a few "non angus" that made the cattle frame shoot up several frame scores in 1 year. So now that that has happened, and was accepted by those in the 50's and 60's, that has become the new "pure". I have no idea how you would type maines and shorties due to their policy of using both as "registered purebred". I was told by the shortie assoc that you can have a red maine and have her registered as at least a half blood shortie. After two generations you have a 1/4 maine animal that is registered as a purebred in the shortie assoc. So there goes that "pure" blood test.
The red and black angus have a unique situation where the red angus actually derived from the black angus.  If you have two black angus parents that create a red angus calf, it can be registered as a red angus. If you breed a black angus to a red angus, and it comes out black, it CAN NOT be registered as a black angus, but can be a Cat II red angus if it comes out red. (If the office told me correctly) So they are intertwined. But they should be able to identify maine, shortie or other non related cattle breeds from that gene pool, if they want to.

Yep, no purebreed or fullblood cattle left anymore and that is shame. We now have associations for crossbred cattle, commonly called "composites" and then we have associations for 'purebred' cattle which are, in fact, not purebred in in the true sense of the word.

 

knabe

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would angus semen from the 60's count as fullblood?

how many years of closed breeding equals fullbloods, ie does capone, covino III, paramount etc = fullbloods even though the are a cross of shorthorn and mancelle?
 

Cattledog

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Show Heifer said:
Let me start by saying I believe there are no "fullblood = purebred" breeds left in the country. 

There may be a couple of exceptions.  I remembered reading about this program when I was in college.  There could still be some dillution but I think that this program could be a close representation of true purebred angus genetics.  Since this is a closed herd it would be interesting to see how they manage their matings as time goes on.

http://wyeangus.umd.edu/History.cfm

 

oakview

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There are no "purebred" or "fullbloods" and really never have been.  Check the history of nearly every recognized cattle breed and note that they were developed from a conglomerate of cattle selected to fit a certain definition that the founders wanted.  Shorthorns alone were used as a base breed or a portion of the makeup of over 30 "breeds" of cattle.  My personal opinion is that each generation of breeders owes it to the previous generations to stay as true as possible to breed history.  Use the genetics available within the breed to get the change you want.  However, there is a human element.  The easiest way may sometimes be to go outside the accepted gene pool.  This is not unique to cattle.  I knew of a Hampshire hog breeder that ran into trouble when hogs of his "purebred" breeding produced some red offspring.  The Hampshire sheep of the 60's had trouble with wool blindness.  Have you seen a Hampshire sheep lately with more than a small tuft of wool on it's head?  I knew of a young man that had a first place heifer at the Iowa State Fair in the 70's, sold the heifer to a prominent Angus herd, and asked them if they wanted the Angus paper, the Maine Anjou paper, or both.  She was a halfblood Maine, but she blood typed "okay".  Today's technology makes it relatively simple to determine genetic heritage.  My advice would be that if you're unsure, stay away until proven safe.
 

aj

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My concern isn't so much purity. I think cattle need to be pure enough that you get the expected hybrid vigor when crossed on another breed. I think predictability and being selected for the right traits is more important than whether a bull is 99% or 88% pure. My concern is on the genetic defects. Is like the Kansas State fair champion shorthorn steer ever bloodtyped for purity? I know down south it doesn't matter. How about the junior nationals. Could a heetseeker sired heifer win the purebred heifer division or are cattle bllodtyped in these shows? My point is that this will happen and I was just curious if directors of assc's have plans for this. maybe cattle aren't checked unless a law suit is involved I don't know? If red angus cattle start testing as th carriers what do you do. I just think the harmless club calf deal will bleed over into every breed of cattle. Again its the defect part that bothers me and we have the test's for defects now.
 

Steered

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AJ-
in terms of the Kansas State Fair here are the requirements for some of the breeds:
Charolais 50%
Gelbvieh 3/8
Limi 50%
Maine 1/4
Red Angus 1a or 1b
Shorthorn 15/16
Simi 50%
not even going to bother with Chi ;D

I agree that some breed assoc are just turning into papered x-breds.  If the state fair (breed assoc or whoever comes up with these percentages) doesn't even care if the breed champion steer is even 1/2 blood for that breed, how are you going to blood test them?  It is nice to say that your breed won a state fair, but if the calf is 5/8 to 3/4 some other breed, did your breed really win?
I have always thought that each breed should try to maintain more breed integrity, but that seems to be an "old fashioned" idea.  I am not saying that you should not cross breed, just show it as a cross bred.
Watched some Limi and Simi sales the last couple of weeks on the interet and there were more composite lots that purebred lots.  They talked about the angus blood lines of the composites and didn't even mention the blood lines of the Limi side on most of the lots I watched in one sale.

I personally don't think that any calf should be shown as any breed unless it is at least 50% that breed (preferably more).  I realize that I am in the minority in this sentiment, but if it is less than 50% it is a cross/commercial and should be shown as such. 
 

ROAD WARRIOR

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Show Heifer said:
Let me start by saying I believe there are no "fullblood = purebred" breeds left in the country.  So with that in mind:

Most breeds have to have the animal DNA'd to be collect for AI use (most syndicate bulls are collects therefore blood typed). The problem comes in on your definition of "pure". Yes, most would agree the angus had a few "non angus" that made the cattle frame shoot up several frame scores in 1 year. So now that that has happened, and was accepted by those in the 50's and 60's, that has become the new "pure". I have no idea how you would type maines and shorties due to their policy of using both as "registered purebred". I was told by the shortie assoc that you can have a red maine and have her registered as at least a half blood shortie. After two generations you have a 1/4 maine animal that is registered as a purebred in the shortie assoc. So there goes that "pure" blood test.
The red and black angus have a unique situation where the red angus actually derived from the black angus.  If you have two black angus parents that create a red angus calf, it can be registered as a red angus. If you breed a black angus to a red angus, and it comes out black, it CAN NOT be registered as a black angus, but can be a Cat II red angus if it comes out red. (If the office told me correctly) So they are intertwined. But they should be able to identify maine, shortie or other non related cattle breeds from that gene pool, if they want to.

Yep, no purebreed or fullblood cattle left anymore and that is shame. We now have associations for crossbred cattle, commonly called "composites" and then we have associations for 'purebred' cattle which are, in fact, not purebred in in the true sense of the word.
If you breed a red angus cow to a black angus bull and the calf is black it is eligable for a catagory II Red angus registration. If the calf is red it's eligable to be registered as a 1A purebred red angus. The black association does not recognize either calf or a red calf produced from black parentage. RW
 

Show Heifer

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Oops, you're right RW.... I meant Cat I if red is the resulting calf. Thanks for the catch.

As far as defects go, that is a slippery slope in which some in the "registered" cattle are sliding down (quickly to their deaths I hope). I actually received a catalog the other day that said "if you are a commercial cattleman, do not worry about using carrier or untested bulls. The fact is, you will never see the result of a carrier female being bred by a carrier bull........"  It preceeded by and was followed by the authors rationale for not testing and for selling carriers bulls. 
So going along with other breeds being in "purebred" cattle, while each breed will have a dominent genetic defect, most will have those "lurkers" that will rear their ugly head sooner or later and then the finger pointing will start to the "dirty breed" for causing all the troubles, when it was really the breeders that are to blame.

Steered, I have followed some of those sales, and it is amazing how many carrier bloodlines (direct sons and daughters - not those 4 generations back) are being sold with no mention of defects or test results. I have also seen the wonderful "our breed is better than that breed" due to registration numbers, and lack of "proof" of a lethal defect. Don't know if that is the right approach.... especially with the two breeds that are involved. Think that is going to bite them in the butt in a few very short months.....
 

aj

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Who would police a fake pedigree deal would it be a director vote or a ceo decision in say the Simmental scenario?
 

Torch

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Bravo Steered! (clapping)

But I would go father. I would think that those in charge at the State Fair should not allow a breed to be granted its own class if it allows animals of less that 7/8 purity. But how dare we have standards. JMHO
 

knabe

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Torch said:
Bravo Steered! (clapping)

But I would go father. I would think that those in charge at the State Fair should not allow a breed to be granted its own class if it allows animals of less that 7/8 purity. But how dare we have standards. JMHO

sometimes it's just about getting people to show up.  getting a high % maine female to place highly where i'm at is extremely difficult.  if they were fullbloods, people would ask what did they cross them with to get that color.
 

Torch

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To a degree I understand why some breed associations have abandoned their genetic heritage. Their genetics were used for single traits inclusions to other breeds genetic pool. Once that was accomplished their genetics were no longer needed. So to survive they became registered cross.
 

knabe

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Torch said:
To a degree I understand why some breed associations have abandoned their genetic heritage. Their genetics were used for single traits inclusions to other breeds genetic pool. Once that was accomplished their genetics were no longer needed. So to survive they became registered cross.

wow, nice summary.
 

oakview

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It is always easy to say someone should police situations at shows and eliminate animals that "aren't right".  Who is going to be 'someone'?  Who is going to make the decision that an animal doesn't fit a certain criteria?  Who is going to decide what criteria an animal needs to fit into?  True story:  Around 40 years ago, a JUNIOR breed association board decided that a steer entered at their state show was not eligible to show because he was not a purebred.  About 2 months later, after the steer won his breed division at the state fair, the breeder of the steer walked into the 4-H office and declared he had raised the steer and he was in fact not a purebred.  The steer was disqualified and stripped of his title at the state fair.  The exhibitors of the steer sued the JUNIOR board association members personally for barring it from the state junior show and were awarded a significant sum of money.  To the best of my knowledge, the judge ruled the JUNIOR board was not qualified to determine the steer was not a purebred and they had financially harmed the exhibitor.  There were several legal conditions in existence at the time that allowed the JUNIOR board members to be sued individually that have been remedied, but the point remains someone took a stand and, unfortunately, paid a price.  I know of a breed association that pulled the papers of some cattle in the 80's without sufficient proof and also paid the price.  How many of us would be willing to sit in a beef show office and disqulify an animal, with a pedigree, because we didn't think the animal fit our accepted definition of a purebred?  In my estimation, the breed association bears this responsibility.  If the animal has a pedigree and a question arises as to the authenticity, the breed association follows protocol and takes the appropriate action.
 

showsteerdlux

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Show Heifer said:
Let me start by saying I believe there are no "fullblood = purebred" breeds left in the country.  So with that in mind:

Most breeds have to have the animal DNA'd to be collect for AI use (most syndicate bulls are collects therefore blood typed). The problem comes in on your definition of "pure". Yes, most would agree the angus had a few "non angus" that made the cattle frame shoot up several frame scores in 1 year. So now that that has happened, and was accepted by those in the 50's and 60's, that has become the new "pure". I
In regard to the DNA typing for AI use I know of at least 1 Angus bull being used right now who is out of a half blood maine bull, and he won't sign certificates, they have to be quote natural service, the bull himself is out a quote popular AI sire. Not going to name any names, but a few of his cattle have been dq'd down south here for not matching up, and they couldn't prove purebred.
 

Freddy

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I 've got a test for the ANGUS  COWS THAT SURE TELLS you which ones that aren't  Angus,  use Meyer 734  or some other cheaperr horned bull on the registered Angus cows an if no scurs or horns the cow is a true Angus, have heard of some very good donors that didn't pass this test ...
 

oakbar

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I think Oakview pretty much nailed this one down with his two posts.  If you go back far enough every breed has crossed another breed into it.  The decision should rest with the association and if there are questions the association should also be responsible for checking that out.  I agree with AJ also--to think the unabashed use of carrier animals in the club calf area won't bleed over into the breeds eventually is just putting your head in the sand and not recognizing the problem.    Trying to work your way around a carrier female is one thing, but promoting bulls that are carriers should be considered criminal.  It is my hope, that each breed that has a genetic disorder(basically all of them) will allow breeders a period of time to breed their carrier females after the problem is discovered.  Tests should then be required of all offspring, register the non-carriers, do not register any male carriers, and have a definite timeline to phase out all registrations for carriers--even females.  JMHO
 
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