aj
Well-known member
In theory heetseeker could be sire of the year in 7 breeds and not show up on any papers? God I love this business! ;D
Breed Purity
- Thread starter aj
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simtal
Well-known member
what is the difference between bloodtyping and dna?
thought that only dna was definitive?
thought that only dna was definitive?
aj
Well-known member
Is heatseeker the greatest bull of all time or is he the downfall of the total beef industry in general? Kinda interesting anyway.
sjcattleco
Well-known member
Heatseeker is just the ultimate in Hybrid Vigor. and the ultimate mutant!
To show hiefer... There are pure cattle! that is why we have asterisk free shorthorn.... Plus add linebreeding into the mix and they actually become even more pure!
To show hiefer... There are pure cattle! that is why we have asterisk free shorthorn.... Plus add linebreeding into the mix and they actually become even more pure!
Doc
Well-known member
sjcattleco said:
I understand what you are saying sj, but if you want to get real technical then there are some issues. Lets just take Gizmo for example. He traces back to good ole Improver. Improver was brought into the breed books because he met breed standards , even though he was bought at the stockyard with no idea of his parentage. So how pure is that?
knabe
Well-known member
Doc said:
Reminds me of justin morgan, and the progenator of almost every dog breed.
Doc
Well-known member
Reminds me of justin morgan, and the progenator of almost every dog breed.
[/quote]
Exactly!!!
aj
Well-known member
Wasn't instant enticer asterisk free? His damn was a fullblood maine in reality as discussed here before.
justintime
Well-known member
aj... there are lots of cattle with an asterisk free paper that are far from being pure. Most of this has been caused by decisions made at breed association board tables over the years. Here are a few examples:
I was one of the original breeders who brought the Irish Shorthorns into Canada and we were the second to bring them to North America. If there was ever a set of cattle that should be considered to be non pure, it had to be the Irish cattle ( not all of them, but some of them). Many of them had no pedigree whatsoever, and the Irish made up the pedigrees as they went. We put them in the appendix herd book as we felt that is where they belonged. A year later, a Notice of Motion was made by a well known " pure" breeder, to move these cattle into the closed herd book. It passed with two votes against it... those being made by us, who brought these cattle in. It is hard to find any Shorthorns in the closed herd book in Canada that do not contain several crosses of Irish blood in their background. It was after this decision, that I decided that whether there was an asterisk or not, it really did not matter. It is really the quality of the animal that counts the most. If you know anything about pedigrees, you can find something back in almost every pedigree you look at. I can show you Irish, Red and White Holstein,and many other non pure ansectors in virtually every pedigree you want to look at. It honestly has been years since I found one that I thought had a chance of being pure.
For a period of 2 years the Canadian Shorthorn Association allowed cattle in the appendix book to go into the closed herd book when they reached purebred status. This was probably back in the 80s. After two years, this was changed back to where appendix cattle could never leave the appendix book. I was researching some pedigrees last spring, and I found a half blood Simmental female that I purchased in 1974 in Ontario, in the pedigree of a bull with a so called closed herd book pedigree. I have spent a lot of time trying to find a female that has nothing but closed herdbook animals in it, for a breeder in Brazil, ( no Irish, no Australian, nothing that can not be traced back to the Scottish pedigrees of the 50s and 60s and earlier.) I literally have looked through hundreds of pedigrees for a female like this, and I am convinced that none exist. I did some checking when I was in Scotland, and I checked with the Secretary of the British breed society, and he informed me that there are none of these cattle remaining. I asked Donald McGillvary, who owned the famous Calrossie herd, if he knew of any remaining. He said " no, and it is a very good thing". I asked him why he thought this, and he said that " these cattle were absolutely the worst cattle we ever developed, and I am glad they are all gone. They were the reason that the Shorthorn breed was on the list of endangered breeds of livestock in Britain for many years." I find it interesting, that most British Shorthorn breeders want genetics that has some Maine blood in their background. They do not consider closed herd book pedigrees from Canada and the US as being purebred. Most British breeders are much into studying pedigrees, and I have helped some of them research the backgrounds of some very popular cattle. I have yet to find one that they consider to be a purebred.
In both Canada and the US, Australian Shorthorn pedigrees are accepted at face value. If they are purebred in Australia, they are also considered purebred in our herd books. Many Australian pedigrees contain grade cattle. Some of the great female lines in the great Marellan program, like the Isobels, go back to cattle of unknown pedigree. I do not see this as a bad thing but I applaud the Australian breeders for recognizing quality when they saw it, and bringing it into the breed. If you look at bull sale catalogs from Australia, there are many bulls that have partial pedigrees or are not registered at all. Dunbeacon Venture's pedigree is missing some generations of anscestory.
I honestly do not believe there is any such thing as a true pure bred in any breed. Every breed has been originated by crossing two or more breeds and then intensifying these genes into a " purer" condition. This said, I do think it is a very good thing when we can document the ancestry of an animals heritage. For the most part, an appendix program provides this opportunity.
I was one of the original breeders who brought the Irish Shorthorns into Canada and we were the second to bring them to North America. If there was ever a set of cattle that should be considered to be non pure, it had to be the Irish cattle ( not all of them, but some of them). Many of them had no pedigree whatsoever, and the Irish made up the pedigrees as they went. We put them in the appendix herd book as we felt that is where they belonged. A year later, a Notice of Motion was made by a well known " pure" breeder, to move these cattle into the closed herd book. It passed with two votes against it... those being made by us, who brought these cattle in. It is hard to find any Shorthorns in the closed herd book in Canada that do not contain several crosses of Irish blood in their background. It was after this decision, that I decided that whether there was an asterisk or not, it really did not matter. It is really the quality of the animal that counts the most. If you know anything about pedigrees, you can find something back in almost every pedigree you look at. I can show you Irish, Red and White Holstein,and many other non pure ansectors in virtually every pedigree you want to look at. It honestly has been years since I found one that I thought had a chance of being pure.
For a period of 2 years the Canadian Shorthorn Association allowed cattle in the appendix book to go into the closed herd book when they reached purebred status. This was probably back in the 80s. After two years, this was changed back to where appendix cattle could never leave the appendix book. I was researching some pedigrees last spring, and I found a half blood Simmental female that I purchased in 1974 in Ontario, in the pedigree of a bull with a so called closed herd book pedigree. I have spent a lot of time trying to find a female that has nothing but closed herdbook animals in it, for a breeder in Brazil, ( no Irish, no Australian, nothing that can not be traced back to the Scottish pedigrees of the 50s and 60s and earlier.) I literally have looked through hundreds of pedigrees for a female like this, and I am convinced that none exist. I did some checking when I was in Scotland, and I checked with the Secretary of the British breed society, and he informed me that there are none of these cattle remaining. I asked Donald McGillvary, who owned the famous Calrossie herd, if he knew of any remaining. He said " no, and it is a very good thing". I asked him why he thought this, and he said that " these cattle were absolutely the worst cattle we ever developed, and I am glad they are all gone. They were the reason that the Shorthorn breed was on the list of endangered breeds of livestock in Britain for many years." I find it interesting, that most British Shorthorn breeders want genetics that has some Maine blood in their background. They do not consider closed herd book pedigrees from Canada and the US as being purebred. Most British breeders are much into studying pedigrees, and I have helped some of them research the backgrounds of some very popular cattle. I have yet to find one that they consider to be a purebred.
In both Canada and the US, Australian Shorthorn pedigrees are accepted at face value. If they are purebred in Australia, they are also considered purebred in our herd books. Many Australian pedigrees contain grade cattle. Some of the great female lines in the great Marellan program, like the Isobels, go back to cattle of unknown pedigree. I do not see this as a bad thing but I applaud the Australian breeders for recognizing quality when they saw it, and bringing it into the breed. If you look at bull sale catalogs from Australia, there are many bulls that have partial pedigrees or are not registered at all. Dunbeacon Venture's pedigree is missing some generations of anscestory.
I honestly do not believe there is any such thing as a true pure bred in any breed. Every breed has been originated by crossing two or more breeds and then intensifying these genes into a " purer" condition. This said, I do think it is a very good thing when we can document the ancestry of an animals heritage. For the most part, an appendix program provides this opportunity.
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