Breeding for longevity

[leanbeef]

I agree this is an interesting thread. Still, I'm amused by the number of us who argue against common sense just to make our point. Obviously, most of us would prefer a youngish cow that does a decent job over an old gummer that's seen her better days. And I think a lot of us--myself included--would take a cow with a little experience over a four-year-old coming with her first calf! This business requires men and women who can balance the extremes and work within optimum areas of productivity. It's not the extremes that put bread on the table and money in the bank year in and year out.

We can discuss all night and day about the best age to breed a heifer or cull an old cow...none of that changes research that has proven it's the females that calve BY their second birthday and stay in the herd longer that make the largest financial contribution to a commercial cattle operation. What exactly does that mean?...well, that's where that common sense comes in to play.

It doesn't mean a whole lot.  Especially since you didn't include a comparative.... "stay in the herd longer" THAN WHAT?  ...   and the majority of people in this conversation are talking seedstock where 1 calf could bring more than a lifetimes worth of a commercials cow's calves. Where there is more risk assumed, there needs to be more precaution taken. 

Stay in the herd longer than their herd mates which are culled because of poor reproductive performance, bad feet and legs, teat and udder problems, bad temperament, etc. I don't think it matters if you're talking about seed stock outfits or commercial cattle operations...longevity is a trait that has a positive affect on the bottom line. We run seed stock cattle, and we don't manage them any differently than a good commercial cattleman would manage his cows. They're not pampered, because our bull customers don't pamper their bulls, and the genetics and the environment that produces those bulls gives our customers confidence that our bulls will work in their herds. I've never had a guy ask me, "Do you have anything whose mother was culled at a young age?" Problems beget more problems.

I know a lot of seed stock cattlemen, and I've been to a lot of registered cattle sales. There are a lot of seed stock cattle that sell for less than "a lifetimes worth of a commercial cow's calves." I'm not sure what you mean by "precaution" in this context...

 

[aj]

I might throw in one deal. We started calving out Shorthorn heifers. Most have been sired by Gov. Mule and we had been getting birth weight's from 66 to 78 pounds. Well I pulled a calf today out of a heifer. I was by myself and Jesus. Calf was sired by an extra bull and out of a female that went back to a hard calving deal 3 generations back. I shoulf have went to vet but had a horrible pull.....I figured the calf would die of shock. I'm guessing 110#. Please shorthorn breeders including me. Don't dabble in the the birth weights over a hundred. It is always floating around out there. Name one popular Shortie bull from the show ring that doesn't have less than 100# bwt in their close up peddy. Calf ,still alive and the heifer got up. I'm just saying.

 

[Duncraggan]

I have been in Shorthorns for 10 years.  They are not big in South Africa!  In 2009 I sold my property and bought a smaller but more productive property less than a quarter of the distance (now 86km, about 50 miles) of the first property, my family life was suffering!  There was a partnership dissolution and I bought what I believed to be the best animals on the dispersal sale.

I had to buy in a further fair number of breeding cows and tracked down a number of older, deregistered animals which I then re-registered!  Because the new property has no stones, the cows are now lasting a lot longer!  I previously threw out cows, that I bought as pregnant heifers, with bad teeth at 6-7 years of age!  I now have productive cows at 13 years!  Nearly 15% of my breeding females (60-70 cows) are 10 and above years of age!

It is a bit skewed because of a sparse bunch between 6 and 10 years, because of the very few breeders to acquire animals from, but the good calves are often still from the older cows.  I decided, when I moved, to only cull open cows and to no longer look at their teeth, totally against what I was brought up with!

I am a grass based producer and my poorest conception in the past was always with first calvers so, I decided to supplement them in 2012.  Will see on 05 March if it was money well spent!

All my cattle are performance tested and indexed and it will be interesting to see, now that my property is at capacity, what the computer says as to which should be culled!

Attached find a picture of one of the 11-year old cows, nursing a calf, and a good one at that!

 

[sjcattleco]

Well I did not read all 5 pages of replies but I like the topic so i will add my 2 cents

Breeding for longevity is an endevor in breeding for several other things as well. They are also somewhat antagonistic to modern day breeding and selection principles.  Fertility, soundness, structural correctness, resistance to disease, tollerance to things like endophytes, fleshing ability  all come into play.  

Traits like these are not gained by out crossing, following the "cult " of EPDs, chasing blue ribbons, and breeding cattle that are just to dang big.  

Using the principles of Linear measurement,  linebreeding  and strict culling practices will lead to all the traits needed to have longevity become a common trait in a cow herd!

management also plays an important part.  Mineral and vitamin supplement are vital. esp Selenium in most parts of the country.   Grain does more harm than good.  Managing heifers on grass and calving them at 3 instead of 2 is the best decision we have ever made.  before cheap grain that was the norm..

my herd as well at Duncraggen has many more old cows!!! 15% are over 10 and several of them are 14...

Pick breeding stock out of old stock!!  My bull American Muscle had alot longevity in his pedigree.  his maternal grandmother was almost 18 when she died. his mother is 11 this year and doesnot look a day over 6-7

 

[Okotoks]

Well I did not read all 5 pages of replies but I like the topic so i will add my 2 cents

Breeding for longevity is an endevor in breeding for several other things as well. They are also somewhat antagonistic to modern day breeding and selection principles.  Fertility, soundness, structural correctness, resistance to disease, tollerance to things like endophytes, fleshing ability  all come into play.   

Traits like these are not gained by out crossing, following the "cult " of EPDs, chasing blue ribbons, and breeding cattle that are just to dang big. 

Using the principles of Linear measurement,  linebreeding  and strict culling practices will lead to all the traits needed to have longevity become a common trait in a cow herd!

That's a very good point, if you select for the traits you mention you would be selecting for longevity as well as a herd that required lower maintenance!  (thumbsup)

 

[JTM]

Well I did not read all 5 pages of replies but I like the topic so i will add my 2 cents

Breeding for longevity is an endevor in breeding for several other things as well. They are also somewhat antagonistic to modern day breeding and selection principles.  Fertility, soundness, structural correctness, resistance to disease, tollerance to things like endophytes, fleshing ability  all come into play.   

Traits like these are not gained by out crossing, following the "cult " of EPDs, chasing blue ribbons, and breeding cattle that are just to dang big. 

Using the principles of Linear measurement,  linebreeding  and strict culling practices will lead to all the traits needed to have longevity become a common trait in a cow herd!

That's a very good point, if you select for the traits you mention you would be selecting for longevity as well as a herd that required lower maintenance!  (thumbsup)

A double ditto on that one! <cowboy>

 

[Duncraggan]

Pick breeding stock out of old stock!!  My bull American Muscle had alot longevity in his pedigree.  his maternal grandmother was almost 18 when she died. his mother is 11 this year and doesnot look a day over 6-7
[/quote]
How about a picture or two? (thumbsup)

 

[HAB]

Nice, 10 years- thats impressive! I hear Galloways are known for longevity.  That be perfect for me because I don't care much for variance as I like to "line them up so tight they can't move." A quote by Jody I really appreciate.

Our current herdsire is 9 this year.  His dam was 11 when she had him.  She was shipped as a coming 16 year old, due to a stifle injury  Her udder was still like it was when she was 6.

 

[aj]

The other way to do longevity is DUMP THE CATTLE THAT DONT BREED BACK. How many times do showring people have cows that haven't raised a calf in two years........but since its aunt lucies show heifer they are kept around as a mascot. Select against short longevity......... I don't think 15 year old cows would last out here anyway. I personally don't think you can select for 15 year old cows.....but you can cull the hell out of the 4 year old wonders.

 

[sjcattleco]

Also wanted to add that Gizmo's sire was up in his early 20's when he was sent to slaughter and he was used as a lease bull going from ranch to ranch breeding cows!  he must have been a hellofa sight!

 

[JTM]

The other way to do longevity is DUMP THE CATTLE THAT DONT BREED BACK. How many times do showring people have cows that haven't raised a calf in two years........but since its aunt lucies show heifer they are kept around as a mascot. Select against short longevity......... I don't think 15 year old cows would last out here anyway. I personally don't think you can select for 15 year old cows.....but you can cull the hell out of the 4 year old wonders.

Yep, that's what I've been doing and let me tell you, it's rough... Especially when none of them will have heifer calves. This year I'm 9 for 9 bull calves. If this keeps up along with the hard culling I might not have  purebred herd in a few years. If so, I will just continue to breed them up to Shorthorns anyway, just more productive Shorthorns bred for longevity and all those other good traits.