Breeding question

[sizzler14]

I have been around cattle a long time, and the other day I got stumped. we had AI'ed a cow and was waiting to see if she pasted over. 18 days later, I wake up to see the bull trying to breed her but she wouldnt stand. I ran out got into the barn and called my AI Tech to try and breed her again. We waited 8 hours and he arrived at the house. We had first AI'ed her to bodacious. The AI Tech stuck his arm up in her and said "hey her cervix isnt swelled at all". last time it was huge. I said well the bull was trying to breed her. well he was checking her cervix and horns and I couldnt see that, well he said " I think I fee a calf!!!". and Im thinking like a CALF and I go tats impossible her calf is in the cooler. but he meant he thought he felt like the embryo. he said it was a little bigger that his thumb (he had bigger hands). I said well idk, but he had a straw of Monopoly 2 in the gun and I didnt want to just shoot that on the ground. so he stuck tht in the cervix and we turned her out. I turned her out witht the bull because I didnt want an april calf so I figured if the bull bred her i would just DNA the calf. well the bull bred her two more times the next morning. BUTTTTT her cervix wasnt swelled and the guy said he thought he felt the embryo. What is everyones thoughts on this? Was she in and just didnt swell ( i MEAN THE Bull bred her twice after we did) or was it a false heat and there was an embryo. I am kinda torn abut this because idk if the guy is just trying to cover his ass about missing her or what because this guy talks a huge game and assured me that she was caught the first time and when she came back in I was kind of pissed because he had talked such a big game. Any suggestions that are APPROPIATE WOULD BE HELPFUL

 

[leanbeef]

I don't think your tech is good enough to feel an 18-day-old embryo, so that would mean this cow would have been bred the last time he bred her, so that's at least two false heats 18 days apart. It makes more sense and it's a lot more likely that whatever your tech felt was not an embryo. If the bull served her, you can't blame heat detection...sounds like she WAS in heat. I've witnessed one false heat that I know about in 35 years...bull bred a heifer 21 days after AI and I ended up with twins out of the AI sire, but that's the only false heat I've ever known about personally. Sorry...I know that's not the explanation you're probably hoping for.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Anybody who claims they got her on the first one is full if it IMO.  The guy who taught me used to say that all the time as a joke. She can feel just right and you put the semen just perfect still doesn't mean she stuck. That's up to mother nature and how healthy she is. I still joke sometimes with folks. I'll say"safe n calf!" immediately after I'm done. The old timer with the jersey cows gets the biggest kick out of that because he knows I'm full of it.  I know I'm not good enough to feel a 18 day old embryo. I'm not buying what he is sellin.

 

[Charguy]

Your tech is an idiot - no one can guarantee that you got her on the first cycle. All kinds of things can happen or not happen. If her cervix wasnt swollen and she was in standing heat, it could be a false heat. I had a heifer cycle throughout the summer last year every 16 days. I  AIed her twice and then ran her with the bull the rest of the summer. Her last cycle was late September.I was very disappointed as I had high hopes for her. Before I shipped her, I wanted to believe that she somehow was in calf so I preg tested her and she was in calf - about 6 months along. So of course I kept her - she stuck to the second AI service and had a nice bull calf in early Feb. This year she cycled once, was AIed and never cycled again. Maybe her and the bull last year really liked eachother or something. Or maybe she is cystic. Or horny.

 

[sizzler14]

Number one it wasnt her first heat. she had cycled once at 49 days. we cidred her at day 60. she didnt cycle for that round. we didnt time breed her. we waited 21 days and missed her heat so we cidred her again. this time she came in and we bred her. therefore it was completely impossible for her to be bred especially since we a.i everything and dont own a bull and all my neighbors have horses. so it wasnt hr first heat at all. and she wasnt alreay bred. when he said mark her down as bred, he was meaning she was in such good heat he felt extremely confident about it. with that being said, thats why i cant it out. I mean how many days after u flush a cow do u collect the embryos??? they have to feel this someway??? idkkk thts why im asking. in 20 years i have never seen nor heard of anything like this

 

[RidinHeifer]

Could she have taken to the ai and just be not settling with it and slipping it?  My vet is normally 100% certain at exactly 30 days...we double checked with ultrasound as well.

 

[leanbeef]

If there's no way this heifer or cow was more than 18 days bred, then your tech felt something else he might have thought felt like an embryo. Or maybe he just said he did... Nobody can palpate an embryo at 18 days. I'm not even sure you can pick one up on ultrasound at 18 days. Somebody who's really good can feel a heifer pregnancy around day 30...that's about as soon as anybody can palpate one and tell you something. And even at that, I feel a lot better about em after day 45.

When you flush, you don't palpate the embryos, and you don't know how many you have until you look at them under a microscope (after they're out of the cow). You "flush" the contents of the uterus out with a solution & put that in a Petrie dish, then under a microscope, you sort the embryos using a pipette. You do that on day 7 post breeding, so the eggs, if there are any, are 7 days old. Which also explains why you put embryos in a recip on day 7 after her heat, because her uterine environment should match the one the embryos were harvested from.

My recommendation is to leave your heifer with the clean up bull and hope she bred. It's unlikely but maybe possible she could stick to the 2nd AI to Monopoly. It's a lot more likely that semen was deposited too early and she'll be bred to the bull if she turns up pregnant. You can DNA the calf to it's sire if you want to be sure, but I don't think you really need to.

 

[leanbeef]

Btw it makes no difference if that was her first heat or if she's been in a dozen times...no matter how perfect it feels or seems, you can't guarantee one will take. Is it more disappointing when one comes back in you felt sure about?...probably...a little. But it happens. There are some parts of this nobody can control. So you take care of the things you CAN control like nutrition, management, heat detection, timing, semen handling, etc. and you trust Mother Nature to help you out with the rest. Some of em just aren't meant to be. The caveat is that sometimes you get a pregnancy when you're sure there's no way it'll take! Lol

Also, I know you already had the semen thawed and ready, so it didn't hurt to put it in her, but standard is 12 hours after the onset of standing heat. If she wasn't standing for the bull yet, 8 hours after that was probably a little early. And if the bull serviced her the next morning, that's more proof that you probably wasted that semen. It happens...

It sounds like it's better that she get bred at this point, even if you don't get an AI calf out of her this time. There's always next year...right?

 

[sizzler14]

i read where it semen is alive for 24 hours

 

[Mill Iron A]

First off your tech is full of it, implanation is at days 14-15 so no way he could feel an 18 day old embryo.  Instead of putting a CIDR back in you should have just hit her with a lute shot 10 days after you pulled the CIDR the first time.  Just food for thought and it will save you money.  And finally yes semen can live that long but it won't matter if she ovulated 36 hours after onset of estrus.

 

[leanbeef]

There may be viable semen 24 hours after you inseminate, but the goal is to have the highest concentration of viable semen present at the time of ovulation, which will occur around 24 hours after the onset of standing heat if I'm not mistaken. Natural mating, obviously, is timed to make this happen, and since there will undoubtedly be a lot higher concentration of the bull's semen (in this case) compared to the semen you used to inseminate the cow, it's likely that semen from the natural breeding will be more apt to settle the cow if she becomes pregnant. It sounds like the insemination might have been about 24 hours too early to me, but that's just a guess since I don't know all the exact times everything occurred. I'm just trying to guess based on the storylines.

At any rate, you can't put too much expectation in one to conceive (or blame your AI tech completely if she doesn't) because there are too many factors that determine whether or not a cow gets pregnant AND maintains the pregnancy. Your best conception rates though will be if you can time insemination pretty close to 12 hours after she starts standing. And I breed em even if they're still standing 12 hours after they start, which some will do. That's just my rule...12 hours after the onset of standing heat. Few exceptions to that at my place. VERY few...

i read where it semen is alive for 24 hours

 

[vet tech]

While reading the original post all I could smell was trouble. The guy "talking the talk" has a very poor mindset, or lack of knowledge and obviously experience in the field. First, not a embryologist on the planet could "feel" a 18 day old embryo, ultra sounding is only just effective around day 28-30 after implantation. Also, I do not know any AI tech or embryologist who ever guarantees a cow bred at the point of AI or implantation. I AI my own cows and run about 75-80% conception rate and all of those involved with cattle reproduction know that sometimes "the best heat" will not get bred and the "worst heat" will. We still have way to much to learn. Mother nature rules, and when she says no we can not help that. I feel like he is doing you wrong. I would suggest to find a new guy, however,  I also know that's not possible for everyone. Saying that the cervix is not "swollen" is not a big deal to me and is certainly not a deal breaker by any means IN MY EXPERIENCE. I have bred many cows successfully with a cervix that is not swollen, or at least not abnormally large with lots of discharge. Every heat on every cow is different.
On another question you asked, embryos are flushed from their donor 7 days after the donor was AI'd. Those embryos are placed in the recip animal 7 days after a standing heat of that recip.

 

[mainegirl]

I am pretty new to the game, but I have been told that if you actually see the clean up bull breed her, then she was open. Also, if she happened to have just showed a false heat and your AI Tech bred her again and inserted the gun into her cervix, that would have penetrated the "plug" which is a thick mucus that forms inside the cervical canal to prevent bacteria from entering the uterus, so that the environment remains sterile. If it is penetrated, the cow will abort the fetus. So, if she did catch the first time you AI'ed her, she will probably not keep that calf because you AI'ed her again. Like most of the people that have responded to your question before I did, there is no way your tech could have felt a calf that early. Really good and experienced vets and techs might diagnose at 30 days, but it is risky even then because you can possibly "pinch" off the fetus on accident. I hope this helps answer your question. Best of luck with your breeding season!

 

[farmboy]

False heats happen all the time around here. And if dummy thinks he can feel a calf at 18 days, do you really want him playing around on your ovaries?

 

[DL]

WOW ! It really helps to have a pretty decent understanding of the reproductive cycle of the cow, the various signs of heat, the process of fertilization, implantation (which does not occur at 15 days) etc

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/beef4892

someone good with an ultrasound can routinely pick up 28 to 30 d pregnancy

anyone who says they can palpate an 18 d pregnancy has likely drunk the kool aide

it is your job to determine when the cow should be bred based on the various signs of heat, not just standing - but even if he does everything right and you have the absolutely right time there is no way to guarantee she is pg

The scenario you gave (Number one it wasnt her first heat. she had cycled once at 49 days. we cidred her at day 60. she didnt cycle for that round. we didnt time breed her. we waited 21 days and missed her heat so we cidred her again. this time she came in and we bred her. therefore it was completely impossible for her to be bred especially since we a.i everything and dont own a bull and all my neighbors have horses. so it wasnt hr first heat at all. and she wasnt alreay bred. when he said mark her down as bred, he was meaning she was in such good heat he felt extremely confident about it. with that being said, thats why i cant it out. I mean how many days after u flush a cow do u collect the embryos??? they have to feel this someway??? idkkk thts why im asking. in 20 years i have never seen nor heard of anything like this) suggests to me that your heat detection is not optimal and that could be a big part of the problem - being bred and being pregnant are two different things chances are she was open and in heat