Building a Herd

[okcc]

What is the best way to build a new herd? Would you recommend buying a high quality donor, recips, and flushing her? Or buying recips and embryos from several different donors OR buying several cheaper females and breeding them up? Any thoughts on the smartest, most efficient way to start a show cattle herd? Thanks

 

[savaged]

Big question:  How much can you invest up-front?

For me, I'd buy the highest quality pure-bred cows, or F1 cows I could afford  - but, if you have to buy fewer higher quality versus more of a lower quality.  Also, I'd buy them bred back the way you want them.

I would not put all my capital into a single or a couple of cows to flush.

Just my opinion.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

If you are financially able - buy as many proven cows from proven cow families to base your herd on. If you can afford to buy 1 or 2 donor cows flush them and AI breed the rest or use them as recips for your donors. I'm not sure I would go out and try to buy real high profile cows as they usually get over priced, I would also stay away from buying and flushing show heifers that have not proven themselves. I would not buy "cheap" cows and try to breed them up, genetics are a time game and there is no logical reason to start way behind everyone else. RW

 

[OH Breeder]

When we got back into the business about 7-8 year ago, we went to alot of sales and bought older but awesome cows. I had not problem buying a 10 11 yr old cow. Breed a couple of years and build a herd. Now that I have had time to rethink it. I would have taken all the money we spent on 10 and bought two good ones and flushed them and placed as many eggs into recieps. We could have raised the quality quicker. It has taken us sometime but we have a pretty respectable herd that raises some good ones for county fairs. That is all we wanted to do.

 

[shortyjock89]

We got back into showing about when OH B did, maybe a year before..but we did it a little differently.  We had two of us kids that were old enough to show, so we started out buying heifers to show.  We got our tails whipped for the most part those first few years, until we were able to raise some calves.  I've figured out that I'm a lot better at raising calves than I am buying them.  I've never had a champion that I didn't raise, but it has taken some time and a LOT of effort to get it that way.  I sold off a bunch of my cows and now I'm down to three of my own, and I think all three are of donor quality, so I'm pretty much where I want to be.  I can tell you that I never thought I'd be raising calves this good (well, I THINK they're good). 

 

[Cattledog]

Well, we got back into it by purchasing high quality show heifers.  We have done very well with them and now have flush quality females with no recipes! ???  I am now at the stage where I am going to sales and buying bred heifers and bred cows that aren't bringing much.  I will give them a chance to be a cow, but if I don't like their calf they will get an embryo.  I'm not sure I would do it this way again.  I really think if you look hard enough you find really good cows and you don't pay the premium for a fancy show heifer. 

With buying show heifers and getting out to shows you can do a little advertising along the way though.

 

[chambero]

It depends on your financial situation.  You are most likely not going to be selling high dollar calves for a while, even if you raise really good ones.  So, don't get yourself in a situation where you are counting on lots of income per calf.  For most people, I'd follow the first posters advice and buy as many good purebred or F1 crosses as you have land to support.  You can buy really good bred heifers at almost any sale for the $1500-$2500/hd range if you use a little patience. 

You can always buy a donor female or embryos from someone and use them as recips, but you still want a good herd that will raise you good replacements or calves that bring good money for commercial purposes in my opinion. 

 

[Cattledog]

It depends on your financial situation.  You are most likely not going to be selling high dollar calves for a while, even if you raise really good ones.  So, don't get yourself in a situation where you are counting on lots of income per calf.  For most people, I'd follow the first posters advice and buy as many good purebred or F1 crosses as you have land to support.  You can buy really good bred heifers at almost any sale for the $1500-$2500/hd range if you use a little patience. 

I totally agree with you Chambero.  We are just now getting ready to start selling on a broad scale and we are prepared to not get as much as we want out of our calves.  I am emphasizing more on getting our good ones in the hands of people that are really competitive.  I am hoping that people will see the success that can be had with our cattle and I can get some more people out to our farm.  When we get people out to our farm we can usually move a couple.

 

[Freddy]

The first posts that you have read  , I think all are real helpful ideas an most of these people posting I think have some valuabe experience they are sharing with you. You need to first pick what breed an what you can handle with your circumstances. Good donor program is the quickest an most advantageous way,cause you start building a herd that is closely related an when you start raising some real good one's they are related, if you happen to make some wrong choices it can also work against you also ,but you can stop that as quick as you see this. Once you figure where you are headed there are some breeders or ranch managers with experience that can help you. I believe that there isn't a perfect cow or bull out there, its learning what type of cattle that work together the best, an there are a lot of opportunities in the cattle business, with the right guidance, or maybe you have enough experience already.  I do know that all cow's are not equal on flushing ability , have seen some cows that just don't produce very many quality eggs, so it might be better to buy eggs from a proven  cow  .  At the present time you can buy real good receipts  prospects  for not very much money.  If you have the money to buy some embryos that are already proven , it will greatly help in your advertising program  because you will draw buyers to your place to sell your calves of high quality an give  your program something to draw customers with.

 

[klintdog]

Never underestimate the power of time! If you're willing to put in the time and effort, there are some very good deals to be had. When I first started building my own purebred numbers up a few years ago the first thing I did was have a good chat with my banker. I had done all the figuring on what I was willing to pay, what my break-even was on calves, and what I could budget conservatively to still post a profit. From there I started checking around for calves that I have been impressed with. I had one cow that has kicked butt since I bought her as a heifer calf, called the previous owner and found that he was selling all his cows because of drought. I managed to walk in and take my pick of his best cows for $1700 a piece. Not shabby since they were all donor quality cows. After more checking I found a sale in Montana that I went to on a whim. Got there and only 7 people were in the stands. I took my pick of the best open heifer calves and didn't pay over $1,000. Got to the bred heifers and took my pick for a maximum price of $1500.

Here's what they're doing today:
1 of those open heifers had her first bull calf this spring and it's goign to Denver next week.
Another open had our highest weaning heifer calf who will be kept as a replacement.
One of the bred heifers hit a home run with her first bull calf, who topped our state bull test sale.

By my math, I bought 17 head and averaged $1375 per animal. The banker was happy because I came in way under budget. I'm happy because I got some awesome cows.

 

[chambero]

My wife and I bought our first bred heifers together in 1996 and paid between $550 and $650 a head for them.  That's not a typo. That group of cows raised a 2nd place Simi steer in San Antonio, a steer that got a kid a TCCA jacket in the Chi division (2nd overall), and several steers that placed at Texas majors over the years.  Several steers and heifers out of them that have brought between $1500 and $4000 per head.

You don't have to pay a ton of money to buy good ones.

 

[okcc]

Thank you for all of your suggestions! I think i will shop around for good deals as some of you have suggested and also buy proven embyros to draw in a crowd. I am planning on buying females starting this spring and fall, focusing on clubby angus, simangus, and maine/ angus crosses. Once again THANK YOU for all your help, it has helped me alot! (clapping)

 

[knabe]

what i would do at least for 3 rounds, is fake buy cattle or follow some.  i would do things so much more differently knowing what i know now. 

do prototype project, see if it works, then expand.  build a herd, just don't buy one.  look around you, see what others do, what could you do better, throw darts at those ideas.

it's probably just as important, if not more so, to employ good management, as it is to choose cattle.  what will you do in short feed years, price changes, vertical integration.  overfocusing on pedigree is a luxury, as a good percentage of cattle management is tax management.

 

[AAOK]

Back to the first few posts, it all depends on your finances and your goals.  Whether you plan to end up with a herd of 5 or 25, when do you plan to be profitable, do you just plan to have fun with good cattle, or is your plan to show and sell championship show calves? 

We started with two bred show heifers from proven cows.  I did business only with those with great success, I knew well, and trusted their advice.  The most important thing I learned was that great cows are much more influential in producing great calves than are the sires of those calves.  In my opinion, flushing, implanting and recip. cows are too costly for the small producer.  Of all the donor cows in production today, I would guess less than 5% consistently produce more the one great calf per flush.  You could purchase and feed five great bred heifers or older cows for the same money, and at least double your chances of getting that great calf. 

As stated earlier, the time factor is incredibly important.  Putting in the time to really learn how to professionally feed, groom and fit can turn a good calf into a great show calf, and an amateur producer into a champion breeder.

 

[justme]

We were like Chambero...our first 3 heifers were in the $600 range.  Best darn cows I've ever owned.  I found finding other "smaller" breeders seemed to be the way for us to start.  Usually good cattle at a better price.  We also weren't afraid of buying older breds.  They were great at building our herd.  I think a mix of nice heifers and some breds works nice.  You'll get some income quicker having some breds.

Honestly, you should have been at Nelson's sale.  What a great sale and good deals to start a herd.

 

[okcc]

what i would do at least for 3 rounds, is fake buy cattle or follow some.  i would do things so much more differently knowing what i know now. 

do prototype project, see if it works, then expand.  build a herd, just don't buy one.  look around you, see what others do, what could you do better, throw darts at those ideas.

it's probably just as important, if not more so, to employ good management, as it is to choose cattle.  what will you do in short feed years, price changes, vertical integration.  overfocusing on pedigree is a luxury, as a good percentage of cattle management is tax management.

What exactly do you mean by "fake buy cattle" ???
I am mainly wanting to raise show cattle as a hobby, making enough money for the cows to pay for themselves and their upkeep, and profit being a bonus.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

IMHO there are too many people flushing cows that are just that - cows. For me to put one in the donor pen she has to do more than just produce one "great" one. A donor should produce consistantly way above average calves irreguardless  of what you breed her to. In my oppinion the cow carries the bulk of the influence of her calves if she is truely of donor quality. I have several cows that many people would be flushing because they have produced one calf that really impressed the general public (high selling bull, show heifer, etc.) but they don't do it consistantly when bred to different bulls. I currently have two cows that I occasionally flush, they are don't miss kind of cows. Long story short - don't get wrapped up in all the hype on donor cows that are for sale, yeah they may have produced old "blowin smoke" , but that may be the only one they ever put on the ground that is above average. RW

 

[justintime]

If I was to start over I would NOT go out and buy some high priced heifer calf or donor cow in a production sale. Maybe I better clarify that by saying that  it is a totally different deal if you are looking for a show heifer for one of your children and/or you wanted to get into ET immediately.

I have said on here before, that ET is not for everyone, and I question if it is for anyone who is just starting out. This is especially true if you are going to try to sell embryos and/or offspring resulting from embryos. After you have spent some time in a breed, and learned the pros and cons of different bloodlines, and decide what you goals are, maybe then you can make some good judgement calls as to good matings for flushing. I know of more than a few breeders who have virtually lost everything because they have over extended themselves via ET. The costs can sneak up fast and before you know it, they can bury you. I also agree with Road Warrior in his comment that there are too many cows being flushed that are simply not good enough. I have seen embryos sell in several sales this fall for under $100 each... some as low as $50 each. This does no one any good.

I have been flushing for several years and right now have 13 donors at the ET center. Some of these have been housed there for 15 months. There are times my knees buckle a little when I open the invoice that arrives in the mail. It is a fairly good incentive to get doing some marketing and try to make some sales.

When I think back over the years, some of the very best purchases I have made have been older cows. I remember one cow in particular that I purchased at age 13. She was one of the most appealing cows I had seen in a very long time, and I decided that I would buy her if she was reasonable... and gamble that she was carrying a heifer calf. She was bred to a very good bull at the time, and the cow still looked youthful for her age.I had to pay $1000 for this cow, but if she had been between 2 and 7 years of age, I probably would have had to pay $5000 plus for a cow of this quality.  I got very lucky and this cow gave me 2 heifer calves before she quit.Both turned into excellent cows and both produced in the top end for many years.  That was 25 years ago, and today, this cow family is one of the best in our herd. The quality this cow possessed has been transmitted for several generations, and it did not cost me the farm to bring these genetics in. I can think of several other older cows that have worked in the same way over the years.

Remember to walk before you run. Unless you are blessed with a exceptional bank account, start slow and buy smart. You don't have to spend all the money at the first sale you go to. Find out what bloodlines are popular in a breed. Find out what the leading breeders who use these bloodlines are. Go visit these breeders and see what they have. Price a few cattle from these breeders. Unless it is a very good deal, it is usually a good thing to tell them you will let them know in a few days. This stops impulse buying, and it also gives you some time to research what other breeders near you may have similar bloodlines. Maybe check these out and see how these breeders price out their cattle. Quite often, you can source a set of good breeding females, with similar breeding that the big name breeder is using, from a smaller breeder at considerable savings. There will come a day when you should be able to participate at the big name sales, but it may not be for a few years. In the meantime, you can build herd of similarly bred cattle that cost much less and they can be bred to breed leading sires. This only is an issue if money is not deep and you need to carefully manage your purchases. If  the money is burning a hole in your pocket, I would still recommend that you start out the same way, but if you decide not to use this advice, it is not as serious a problem.

Know what you want. Know what structural soundness is supposed to look like.... and try to figure out the difference between fluff and puff and practical cattle. Try to understand the difference between femininity and fraility are. Some breeders never learn this one.

Last and probably most important.... before you buy anything.. sit down with your family and write down some of your goals for the cattle venture. If your wife and kids have a different set of goals than you have, it is best to discuss this before you start. It may be that you can rethink some goals and plan your purchases so that they can work for all the family goals. Buying cows is similar to leasing cows. If it doesn't work for everyone involved.... it will not work for anyone.

 

[GONEWEST]

I'm with Freddy and OH Breeder. I like the old cow idea of OH Breeder. It put us on the map in the late 80's early 90's with Simmentals. ET is the quickest way to get high quality quickly. and inexpensively. We do it on the farm, it costs me about $400 total, out the door everything included to flush a cow. Other than extra embryos that might need to be frozen. If you use $800 semen, it might cost more, but if your cow gives you 10 eggs and you get half of those pregnant, that means you have an extra $160 per calf. If you use $800 semen then the calves should sure be worth more than that over a calf that's sire was $20, in general. If you don't have the resources, land, or recips, you can't do it at home and its very expensive, even prohibitive to do at an ET center. Ad to that that id you are breeding crossbred calves the consistency is not nearly as high and it gets more expensive.

I believe that it can, has and will continue to be done, but not many people are as smart as Chambero and able to find high quality cattle for $1500. If they were, no one would ever pay a high price for a cow or heifer, they'd just buy the cheap ones. IN GENERAL, there is no way the average $1500 bred heifer will ever be able to consistently produce the quality that a TRUE donor cow will produce. So you can go your whole life and never have the quality it takes to compete trying that.

Your goals will also have to take into account your geographic location as well. For instance, a $5,000 steer in TX might be a $1500 steer here and a $1500 heifer in TX might be $5000 here. If you aren't able to sell your calves for what you have in them, it doesn't matter what kind of quality you have.

 

[sawboss]

My sons started their own herd program this year, by pooling their resources for one registered breed.  The youngest has two very nice Brangus heifers that he shows, and has done well with so far so they elected to stay with this breed.  My oldest son took out a Young Farmers Loan and purchased 3 additional registered bred Brangus heifers that will calve in March.  We felt this would be the quickest way to establish their herd, since 4 of the 5 heifers will calve this Spring and double their head count immediately.  We feel that the calves bull/heifers will be easily moved in our area since it is such a prominent breed.  The initial investment for the 5 heifers was a $2000/hd average, the outcome is still to be determined.