Bull calves "accidentally" banded

[husker1]

Had a friend tell me yesterday that he was working about 100 calves with the vet, when he had to leave to move panels to a different pasture.  Vet and assistant continued running calves through the chute while he was gone.  He had told the vet that there were a few young calves that needed banded, but forgot to tell him that there were 4 big bull calves that he wanted to stay intact.

When he got back to the working faciity, he noticed that the good bulls were banded and they immediately got them in and cut the bands off.  

They figured the bands were on about 20 to 25 minutes.  No swelling of any type occurred after the bands were removed, and the calves never missed a beat.  These were not the little colored bands, but were done with the emasculator...so they were positively tight.  **My terminology was incorrect...not an emasculator, but the ratchet-type bander with the rubber band...

How long could the bands be on before irreversable damage is done?  My thought is the damage might've already been done.  Jim said that the vet told him he's never had this happen before, but he thought if they didn't swell at all, and all still felt firm in 2 or 3 weeks, that it should be fine.  Told him I'd do a little research (here I am!) and see if anyone has any strange experience with something like this.  It would be cruddy to feed those 4 claves all winter to find out they are no good in the spring.

Thanks for any help.

 

[HF CHARS]

I would think the band would have already crushed the cords,rending them as steers with testicles

 

[Cowboy]

Here is my thinking on this, and I did it to oneof mine one time years ago. We worked and banded all the bulls that were going to be steers for sure, and as I was walking thru them afterwards, I noticed one I wished I had not done.

It had been a long hour already -- but I just got him back in and cut the bands off. The thing about banding is this -- they do not literally CRUSH anything. They simply restrict the blood flow to the affected area and therefore -- the tissue dies a slow death and falls off. In my case, he went on like nothing happened -- and made a great bull calf to sell the next spring. The next year I personally saw 14 of his calves -- so he was still good.

I guess if you banded your finger -- and it went to sleep and never came back to life after 24-30 of the band -- then I'd say it's possible the bull's tools are also affected. Want to try that??? hehehe I wouldn't get worried unless they actually used the emasulator first and just banded the crushed sack ???? --You might want to find that out!

Good luck

Terry

 

[DL]

Had a friend tell me yesterday that he was working about 100 calves with the vet, when he had to leave to move panels to a different pasture.  Vet and assistant continued running calves through the chute while he was gone.  He had told the vet that there were a few young calves that needed banded, but forgot to tell him that there were 4 big bull calves that he wanted to stay intact.

When he got back to the working faciity, he noticed that the good bulls were banded and they immediately got them in and cut the bands off. 

They figured the bands were on about 20 to 25 minutes.  No swelling of any type occurred after the bands were removed, and the calves never missed a beat.  These were not the little colored bands, but were done with the emasculator...so they were positively tight.

How long could the bands be on before irreversable damage is done?  My thought is the damage might've already been done.  Jim said that the vet told him he's never had this happen before, but he thought if they didn't swell at all, and all still felt firm in 2 or 3 weeks, that it should be fine.  Told him I'd do a little research (here I am!) and see if anyone has any strange experience with something like this.  It would be cruddy to feed those 4 claves all winter to find out they are no good in the spring.

Thanks for any help.

The only good answer to your question is that you will know down the road and not before - if the blood supply to the testicles was sufficiently disrupted, then the cells will die and the bull will become a non bull; if however the blood supply was not sufficiently disrupted the testicles might be OK - there is also the possibility of the "middle ground" - some cells in the testicle are dead while others are not. The fact that there was no swelling doesn't mean the blood supply was or wasn't disrupted sufficiently for the testicles to be damaged. I would be inclined to re band them and be done with it, rather than wait and see if they have sufficient testicular mass to pass a breeding soundness exam  -

 

[husker1]

Amended the original post...emasculator wasn't used, but the "ratchet-type" bander....not the little pre-made rubber bands....

 

[ploughshare]

I was always told by our vets that it would take at least 45 minutes before the bands would cause necrosis.  Sounds like Terry has had success with over an hour.  I think I would chance feeding the bulls.  They didn't use an emasculator, right?  

 

[HF CHARS]

I will change my post above and agree with Terry that they will not be crushed from band,,,if a emasculater was used is where I got that from,,but would still be nervous feeding them till spring,,,corn is high to feed bulls that might not be able to cover cows ,,maybe would depend on quality of calves,,are they 20k herdbulls,or 2k commercial bulls

 

[husker1]

no emasculator....

I told Jim the same thing...maybe with feed as high as it is, just band them and move on.  But he really likes the bulls. 

They would be simmy-angus bulls for use in his own herd.  Out of purebred Simmy cows and a  Big Daddy son (Angus) that's pretty darn good.  I haven't seen the calves, but he has a good eye.

 

[DL]

no emasculator....

I told Jim the same thing...maybe with feed as high as it is, just band them and move on.  But he really likes the bulls. 

They would be simmy-angus bulls for use in his own herd.  Out of purebred Simmy cows and a  Big Daddy son (Angus) that's pretty darn good.  I haven't seen the calves, but he has a good eye.

husker -funny I didn't read emasculator - I read big bander LOL -  you need to put on your best Clint Eastwood and look Jim in the eye and say "Well Jim, do ya feel lucky?"

 

[CAB]

This is America, shouldn't there be a lawyer and an insurance company involved in this deal? The vet was told not to band the 4 bigger bulls. He surely has liability insurance doesn't he?

 

[DL]

This is America, shouldn't there be a lawyer and an insurance company involved in this deal? The vet was told not to band the 4 bigger bulls. He surely has liability insurance doesn't he?

No lawyer CAB - you need glasses

He had told the vet that there were a few young calves that needed banded, but forgot to tell him that there were 4 big bull calves that he wanted to stay intact.

 

[CAB]

This is America, shouldn't there be a lawyer and an insurance company involved in this deal? The vet was told not to band the 4 bigger bulls. He surely has liability insurance doesn't he?

No lawyer CAB - you need glasses

He had told the vet that there were a few young calves that needed banded, but forgot to tell him that there were 4 big bull calves that he wanted to stay intact.

Dang it anyway, that one little word, forgot, here I thought we were going to rich over the deal. BTW, I do have glasses, but never use them. Seem to get lost easily.
  I'm with Cowboy on this one and think that they will be OK to keep for bulls. If he had to he could band them after they failed a semen test next spring without much risk.

 

[husker1]

Yes, he forgot to tell the vet that 4 big ones needed left intact...he accepted the blame...no lawsuit!

He plans on keeping them and taking a chance; I was just seeing what the likelihood is that they will not have problems.

Appreciate all the responses.

 

[CAB]

Ah shoot we could have drawn out the drama for years. Please let us know the outcome next year if possible so that the next time something like this happens we'll know what coarse of action would be best.