Bull Suggestion

[TJ]

Dori, just so that you nor anyone else thinks that I just made up the "around 44 inches" number out of the air... this is a post from the Yahoo Miniature Cattle Group, dated June 2. 2004 & post #8618.   



Re: ABF Fitz S219

Thanks, Marlene! He has many calves on the ground being a
nearly 8 year old guy. Most of the calf pics in the Genesis folder
are his (except "His Highness") and the cute heifer calf that
"lindam" posted a few days ago is also his. They are just like
they came out of a cookie cutter - you can spot them across the
field in the herd they're so consistent.

I've never measured him but I'd guess in the 44 inch range.

Dori

Sheesh, TJ, the most amazing thing about this whole conversation is that you can even 'find' something I posted 4 years ago!  Wow, I couldn't do that if my life depended on it!!   (clapping) (lol)

Dori, it's amazing what you will do when you think that you are losing your mind!    (lol)

 

[TJ]

<<I know you said no worries, but again, I apologize for misspeaking, as I never knew that he was a 46-47 inch tall bull.  And I remember what it felt like when I caught wind that some people were spreading a rumor that Doc Holliday was a "short" Lowline around Denver & I was less than enthuised about that.  Especially, when he was atleast 48.5" at that time & might be 49 inches tall by now & especially since Doc would smurf 95+% of all the Lowline bulls in the USA.  I truly didn't want to misinform anyone & feel badly for doing so.  >>

....and I'll say it again:  "No worries".  Heck, I've never even measured him so we're all, basically, guessing!  From where I've come from in cattle, knowing their height isn't paramount.  And since we don't have a size requirement for Lowlines (and I hope we never do!), I still don't pay much attention to size unless someone in the miniature cattle world needs to know!  Extreme size on either end is undesirable, imo, no matter the breed.  I'm more interested in efficiency, cutout %, "fits in the box" carcass, grading choice, and a herd that anyone would recognize as what "I" breed .....when I was breeding them!  I fervently believe that Lowline genetics can help a commercial producer reach those goals and a club calf producer add efficiency, hybrid vigor, a fancy, sound, moderate sized show animal.

I agree about extremes... FWIW, Ian Bamford told me that the best Lowline bulls are typically 44-48 inches tall give or take an inch.  He said any taller or smaller & the consistancy & quality goes out the window.  Based on what I've seen, I think that he is pretty spot on.  I agree about not having a height restriction, but I don't think I'd personally want a Lowline bigger than Doc Holliday.  Bigger than that & you might as well have percentage Lowlines. 

I also think that it's just a matter of time before more of these Lowlines are breed to clubby heifers & Lowline steers will start being shown.  Lowlines are the best kept secrect in the cattle business, but now they are quickly becoming not so much of a secret anymore. 

 

[dori36]

Do you guys have some examples of steers sired by Lowlines or out of Lowline dams that have won major steer shows that were not restricted to Lowline cattle?

A very fair question especially considering this is primarily a discussion group dedicated to show steers.  The short answer from my knowledge is "not that I know of".  I do know of several that have done well in the local fair level including one that I sold that won the lightweight division.  I also know that a few years ago, Neil Effertz' kids cleaned up at the N. Dak. St. Fair with half  Lowlines in the lightweight division, too. The long answer includes the caveat that Lowline cattle have only been in this country since 1996.  People who have been building their herds have primarily focused on breeding stock, fullblood cattle rather than the terminal cattle.  Lowlines have been quite pricey (fullbloods) and so thinking of them as slaughter cattle hasn't been on most minds until the last few years.  Most who are serious about the breed (and given that we can register Lowlines as percentage in a separate registry if they have at least 50% Lowline genetics) realize that just continuing to breed for each other to exchange genetics among ourselves will lead to another fad animal with no solid future.  So, taDAA, a push to add Lowline genetics to commercial herds to moderate cow size, increase efficiency, and reduce finishing costs for terminal producers.  There are now several cattle professionals who are using Lowline genetics for everything to growing grass fed herds (Mark Hoyle in OK with a large grass fed operation) to integrating Lowlines into feedlot operations and following them through the slaughter process to measure the "real" numbers (Duane Umberger).  Kit Pharo, Pharo Cattle Co., also offers semen on TJ's bull, Doc Holliday (correct me if I'm wrong here, TJ) and is one of the leaders in reducing cow size and increasing feed efficiency in commercial cattle.  So, I think it's just a matter of time 'til some Lowline genetics show up in the big steer shows.  But for now, the breed is still small and not really being pushed in the club market.  BTW, a half Lowline/half Shorty bull that TJ mentnioned in a recent post, was Gr. Ch % bull at Denver but had the owners chosen to steer him and market him as a show steer, I personally believe he would  have been hard to beat.  I saw him as a yearling and was blown away by him.  Here's an example of what I, personally, believe is an ideal cow from an Angus dam (Baldridge Oscar grandaughter) and a Lowline bull (Quartermaster).  She probably weighs between 1000 and 1100 lbs today and was about 1000 lbs when she showed here, as a 2 yr old. I think she is an example of what Lowline genetics can do for cow herds that are a bit too big but that the commercial raiser doesn't want to get down to the "miniature" size.  I think most of us realize that with all the inputs on the rise, the days of "bigger is better" are coming to an end.

 

[TJ]

Do you guys have some examples of steers sired by Lowlines or out of Lowline dams that have won major steer shows that were not restricted to Lowline cattle?

A very fair question especially considering this is primarily a discussion group dedicated to show steers.  The short answer from my knowledge is "not that I know of".  I do know of several that have done well in the local fair level including one that I sold that won the lightweight division.  I also know that a few years ago, Neil Effertz' kids cleaned up at the N. Dak. St. Fair with half  Lowlines in the lightweight division, too. The long answer includes the caveat that Lowline cattle have only been in this country since 1996.  People who have been building their herds have primarily focused on breeding stock, fullblood cattle rather than the terminal cattle.  Lowlines have been quite pricey (fullbloods) and so thinking of them as slaughter cattle hasn't been on most minds until the last few years.  Most who are serious about the breed (and given that we can register Lowlines as percentage in a separate registry if they have at least 50% Lowline genetics) realize that just continuing to breed for each other to exchange genetics among ourselves will lead to another fad animal with no solid future.  So, taDAA, a push to add Lowline genetics to commercial herds to moderate cow size, increase efficiency, and reduce finishing costs for terminal producers.  There are now several cattle professionals who are using Lowline genetics for everything to growing grass fed herds (Mark Hoyle in OK with a large grass fed operation) to integrating Lowlines into feedlot operations and following them through the slaughter process to measure the "real" numbers (Duane Umberger).  Kit Pharo, Pharo Cattle Co., also offers semen on TJ's bull, Doc Holliday (correct me if I'm wrong here, TJ) and is one of the leaders in reducing cow size and increasing feed efficiency in commercial cattle.  So, I think it's just a matter of time 'til some Lowline genetics show up in the big steer shows.  But for now, the breed is still small and not really being pushed in the club market.  BTW, a half Lowline/half Shorty bull that TJ mentnioned in a recent post, was Gr. Ch % bull at Denver but had the owners chosen to steer him and market him as a show steer, I personally believe he would  have been hard to beat.  I saw him as a yearling and was blown away by him.  Here's an example of what I, personally, believe is an ideal cow from an Angus dam (Baldridge Oscar grandaughter) and a Lowline bull (Quartermaster).  She probably weighs between 1000 and 1100 lbs today and was about 1000 lbs when she showed here, as a 2 yr old. I think she is an example of what Lowline genetics can do for cow herds that are a bit too big but that the commercial raiser doesn't want to get down to the "miniature" size.  I think most of us realize that with all the inputs on the rise, the days of "bigger is better" are coming to an end.

I agree.  The primary focus of the vast majority of the Lowline breeders has not been on the club calf market (that hasn't even been my focus yet).  Most Lowline crosses are being marketed as seedstock or grassfed beef, but that doesn't mean that they can't or wont be successful when more Lowline cross steers are shown.  Furthermore, a handful of club calf producers are just now starting to use them over the past year or 2.  Also, it is hard to show a steer when all of your calves are sold as bulls & you have 2 to 3 times the amount of buyers as you do bulls.  Had I had a relative interested in showing a steer, I would've steered my percentage bull that won the Kansas City Lowline Show & I think that he would've been very competive here in KY.  But, without a relative interested in showing I wasn't about to steer that bull... he was too nice.  I am biased, but I saw the slick sheer steers at Houston & he would've run with any that I saw (not saying he would've beaten them, but he would've competed) & we washed beside one of the breed slick steer champions, so I got a pretty good look at one of the champions.   

 

[JSchroeder]

I realize the breed has its place in the modern beef industry, I just don't know that they're the answer for somebody trying to get into raising show steers.

edit:Trying to be polite.

 

[Freddy]

Ask Jerry Adamson if the lowline's have a place in the club calf business, they are making great mothers the half blood's.

 

[JSchroeder]

That's what I was asking above, never seen it done.  Could you elaborate?

 

[DLB]

(I am the oringinal poster)  I have been thinking, and have a few questions (for now). 1) How do lowlines cross with Char. and Chi cattle?  2) If I get a heifer calf, how will she cross with non-lowline bulls?  Since she will be 50%, I would not take her back to a lowline or lowline % bull.  Also, how well do they calve (as cows) to the "bigger" calving bulls like H.W?  Thank you guys for the discussion and information, by the way!! <cowboy>

 

[Freddy]

I have no experience wit the lowline's , but Jerry Adamson of Cody ,Ne. (Rocking J Ranch) has both purebred lowline's an used them I think on his Key based cow's an was very impressed by his 1/2 blood cow's an I think he had some 3/4 blood cow's that were working in the Sandhill's of Ne. raising club calve's.  I don't know if Jerrry used any Charolais with the lowline's, but the Effertz Key Ranch of Velva,ND. has used Charolais cattle for many years  an also raise lowline's , an Neil l had bought some semen from our Husker 7701 bull that ABS has,  because of his excellent calving ease in the Charolais breed. , an was using it on his lowline's.    Neil ph. no. 701-223-5202  or Jerry--402-823-4038-----  Picture of Husker 7701 in ABS OR ON  Fred Ranch .com  under herd sire's.

 

[TJ]

I realize the breed has its place in the modern beef industry, I just don't know that they're the answer for somebody trying to get into raising show steers.

edit:Trying to be polite.

I'm trying to be polite too...   

The O.P, clearly stated that they are wanting a live calf & a healthy momma, not necessarily the next champion.   They never once said that they were trying to win a major show with the 1st calf.  Which is very wise, IMHO.  Not many 1st calf heifers very 1st natural calf is a barn burner anyway, and if it is it's likely it was pulled or a c-section calf, etc.

2nd, how many fullblood Chi bulls are siring major champions in recent years???  My guess is none, or very few.  The club calf world is all about change & as the industry changes, so will the club calf industry, IMHO.  What's hot today, may be ice cold 10 years from now. 

Again, last year, a 1/2 Lowline heifer won her class & her division at the World Beef Expo, competing in the A. O. B. Junior Heifer Show.  That may not be considered a major show, but it's not exactly chopped liver, either. 

Also, a 1/2 blood Lowline sired steer can weigh 1200+ lbs., which is big enough to win a steer show.  As a matter of fact, a knock out, frame 4, 1275 lber. will probably win a lot of shows.  Think a frame score 4 steer is too small?  Well, Texas A&M would seem to disagree with you...

Copied directly from Texas A&M's Texas 4-HBEEF Quiz Bowl Supplement4-H...

Question:True or false: A recognized goal for a show steer to weigh for show is 1,100 to 1,300 pounds with a frame score of
between 4 and 6.
Answer:True 
Here is the web address... http://texas4-h.tamu.edu/publications/Project/beef/Beef_Quiz_Bowl_Supplement.pdf

A 1/2 blood Lowline steer will EASILY fall into those specs.  FWIW, my 1/2 blood Lowline bull that won Kansas City was a frame score 4.5.  He could've easily weighed 1,250-1,300 lbs. at 18 months, as a steer.   He would've competed well too & he was out of a Tarentaise cow, not a clubby show heifer.  Just because a lot of people haven't done it yet, doesn't mean it wont work. 

Anyway, I have a buddy that is a club calf producer & he is using Lowlines on heifers, as well as flushing Lowline cows to Clubby & Shorthorn bulls.  I will update you when the offspring are born, etc. 
 
IMHO, if percentage Lowlines aren't the answer, then percentage Angus aren't the answer either.

 

[TJ]

(I am the oringinal poster)  I have been thinking, and have a few questions (for now). 1) How do lowlines cross with Char. and Chi cattle?  2) If I get a heifer calf, how will she cross with non-lowline bulls?  Since she will be 50%, I would not take her back to a lowline or lowline % bull.  Also, how well do they calve (as cows) to the "bigger" calving bulls like H.W?  Thank you guys for the discussion and information, by the way!! <cowboy>

Justin Olson (Olson Family Shorthorns) has a pretty nice Lowline X Charolais cross heifer.  Her sire is one of those 44 inch Lowline bulls, so she isn't necessarily the tallest in the world, but the last time I saw her, I thought that she was pretty nice!  I think that she is a nice beefy heifer, that would make a clubby momma, IMHO. 

My computer is broke, but if it wasn't, I could send you a picture of a 5 month old Lowline X Charolais steer calf that was grassfed & was not creep fed at all.  It wasn't intended to be a show calf, but he is stocky built.  Anyway, he weaned off at over 500 lbs. on nothing but grass (mostly KY fescue) @ 7 months.   If I get it fixed soon, I'll send you a picture.   

We don't have any Chi's anymore, but some of our Tarentaise were bred up from Chi genetics.  Actually, the 1/2 blood bull that won Kansas City has a small touch of Chi in him.  Jerry Adamson has a bunch of 1/2 Lowlines that are also 1/2 Chi X.  Jerry, George Jenkins & Doug Schmidt have all had success showing Lowline X percentage Chi's at the national Lowline show.  Dakota Lowlines has shown a few Lowline X Maine crosses with some success at the National level.  Trevor Smith, Rick Sekich, & Glen Benajamin have shown a few Lowline X Shorthorn crosses with success at the National level.   Lowlines are Angus cattle, so just like Angus, they cross well with anything.  Actually, fullblood Lowlines maybe the only "100% pure Angus" in the US, at least that is what some Angus breeders, who have recently switched or at least a partial switch to Lowlines, claim.
 


RE a 1/2 Lowline cow's calving ease... 1 probably would breed her back to a Lowline or percentage Lowline for the 1st calf.  You may want to breed her to a Lowline X Maine or Lowline X Shorthorn bull the 1st time.  However, after that you could pretty much breed her to whatever.  IDK about Heat Wave, because a lot of cows have troubles with him.   However, I can tell you that Jerry Adamson has bred Dr. Who to a Fullblood Lowline cow for a natural calf, not ET.  That is a 100% Lowline cow, not a 50% Lowline.  The resulting heifer calf was the Res. Percentage National Champ Female a few years ago.  You may not want to use Heat Wave, but if bulls like Dr. Who will work on fullbloods, after the 1st calf, they will work on 1/2 bloods, after the 1st calf.

Hope that helps. 

 

[TJ]

Since I am having a PM exchange & others may feel the same way, I just want to publically set the record straight...

No, I do not think that Lowlines are the only good cattle.  No, I don't think that Lowlines are the only answer, as a matter of fact, for show steers, I think that a 1/4 to 1/2 Lowline is probably ideal... for the record, I've always said that!   Yes, I like other breeds.  Yes, I have recommended other bulls besides Lowline bulls, even in this thread I mentioned a Charolais.      Yes, I own other breeds of cattle besides Lowlines, but I do like the Lowlines the most... because that is what I like.  Yes, I do post about things other than Lowlines on Steerplanet.  Yes, I do think that Lowlines are ideal for heifers.  Yes, I know that some club calf producers & show judges are indeed using Lowline bulls & yes, I think that some would be suprised to hear the names of the producers who are.  And no, I am not the only poster on steer planet who has ever recommended using their own bull or thier own genetics or their own breed... I can probably name at least 20 without really thinking.  And, yes, I will continue to recommend what I think will work well for others.  And, no, you don't have to read my posts, if they bother you.  And yes, I can be wrong.  And no, I am not always right.  And yes, you could probably breed another breed to the heifer & get a live calf.  But, unless you are wanting purebred calves, I still think that a Lowline bull would make an awful good choice for most heifers!  Lowlines may not be for everyone, but they will work.  Yes, I realize that what I like & what others like may be 2 totally different things, but it's called an opinion & I thought that is what you gave when someone asks for advice.  And no, my feathers are not ruffled just because some don't think Lowlines & Club Calves go together... actually, I'm in a pretty good mood & the Lowline business is extremely well.  So, it's all good on my end, just wanted to set the record straight in case anyone else is offended by my posts, that's all. 

I am truly sorry, if I do offend anyone, it's certainly not my intent at all.  Just trying to be helpful.

I hope that everyone has a happy weekend & I will try to do the same! 

;D

TJ

 

[TJ]

Do you guys have some examples of steers sired by Lowlines or out of Lowline dams that have won major steer shows that were not restricted to Lowline cattle?

Not a steer & not a major show, but I just read about a 3/4 Lowline heifer that was undefeated this spring in Arkansas, at 9 different shows, including the Arkansas State Spring Show, competing in the A. O. B. division.  Don't know much about the competition in Arkansas in the A. O. B. Division, but winning 9 grand championships at 9 different shows, including at least one at the state level, is pretty impressive, IMHO. 

Not trying to offend anyone, just stating the facts, in an honest manner, like I always try to do. 


   

 

[knabe]

2nd, how many fullblood Chi bulls are siring major champions in recent years???  My guess is none, or very few.  The club calf world is all about change & as the industry changes, so will the club calf industry, IMHO.  What's hot today, may be ice cold 10 years from now. 

agree.  that said, it's still sad there aren't too many, and that the association changed the color.

 

[LazyGLowlines]

Speaking of Bluey, our red fullblood lowline bull, we have a customer who bred a Heat Seeker daughter (X shorthorn) to Bluey, then sold the heifer to a show judge in Illinois. She had a red 1/2 blood heifer that, from what we've been told, will be ANY show heifer out there!  Some of the first chi-angus/lowline crosses hit the ground this spring and they are spectacular!  Watch for Bluey calves to hit the show circuit this fall. We'll be posting a slide show to our website soon with Bluey calves (so TJ...we hope to get something from you too!).  We have his fullblood  calves posted on our sale pages if anyone is interested in taking a look.

 

[LazyGLowlines]

My bad.  I meant to say 'She had a red 1/2 blood heifer that, from what we've been told, will BEAT ANY show heifer out there!'  BTW, Bluey is close to 45" tall and weighs 1450, give or take a few.  Very deep, very long.  All our bull calves look like bulls...very masculine, lots of muscle definition. Schmit farms in North Dakota uses Bluey and Wandoo (Bluey's sire) semen and is sold on the results they're getting with their calves. As I said...watch for these calves in the upcoming show season.

 

[dori36]

Speaking of Bluey, our red fullblood lowline bull, we have a customer who bred a Heat Seeker daughter (X shorthorn) to Bluey, then sold the heifer to a show judge in Illinois. She had a red 1/2 blood heifer that, from what we've been told, will be ANY show heifer out there!  Some of the first chi-angus/lowline crosses hit the ground this spring and they are spectacular!  Watch for Bluey calves to hit the show circuit this fall. We'll be posting a slide show to our website soon with Bluey calves (so TJ...we hope to get something from you too!).  We have his fullblood  calves posted on our sale pages if anyone is interested in taking a look.

Hey, Nancy, I love this picture of Bluey in his "working clothes"!  He really looks better to me in this pic than in the one you use in most of his promo materials and for your avatar here.  He's very manly!!!  And, for Knabe, ALR didn't "change color" on Lowlines.  The red gene, both wild type and the better known recessive has long been present in the breed but not recognized nor emphasized until recently.  It has never been "disallowed" in the American Lowline Registry. Now a breeder has the choice to go red, black, or both.  Black is still "available"!!  <party>

 

[TJ]

Speaking of Bluey, our red fullblood lowline bull, we have a customer who bred a Heat Seeker daughter (X shorthorn) to Bluey, then sold the heifer to a show judge in Illinois. She had a red 1/2 blood heifer that, from what we've been told, will be ANY show heifer out there!  Some of the first chi-angus/lowline crosses hit the ground this spring and they are spectacular!  Watch for Bluey calves to hit the show circuit this fall. We'll be posting a slide show to our website soon with Bluey calves (so TJ...we hope to get something from you too!).  We have his fullblood  calves posted on our sale pages if anyone is interested in taking a look.

I haven't seem him in person yet, but I have high hopes for him.  The plan is for me to pick him up & a few others in TN, sometime arouind the 1st part of August.  I thought I was going to have him here by the end of June, but I decided to buy a few others & they were still too young to wean, so August it is.  It may be Sept before I send a pic, but I promise that I will. 

BTW, I found a really nice Zeffirelli X Ardrossan Nardia heifer calf in my pasture this morning. 

 

[TJ]

My bad.  I meant to say 'She had a red 1/2 blood heifer that, from what we've been told, will BEAT ANY show heifer out there!'  BTW, Bluey is close to 45" tall and weighs 1450, give or take a few.  Very deep, very long.  All our bull calves look like bulls...very masculine, lots of muscle definition. Schmit farms in North Dakota uses Bluey and Wandoo (Bluey's sire) semen and is sold on the results they're getting with their calves. As I said...watch for these calves in the upcoming show season.

For a judge to make that boastful a claim, she must be awfully good.  I hope that I get a chance to see her & I probably will.  I've been known to pull off an occasional upset or 2 and I've got some nice percentage calves, so hopefully I'll have something that can hang with her.   

Ian Bamford had told me that Bluey was 44 inches, but that's been a couple years ago & he probably grew an inch or so. 

There will be some Bluey calves at Louisville, I think at least 1 Fitz calf & several Doc Hollidays.  That will be really interesting to see them all together at one show. 

 

 

[TJ]

Speaking of Bluey, our red fullblood lowline bull, we have a customer who bred a Heat Seeker daughter (X shorthorn) to Bluey, then sold the heifer to a show judge in Illinois. She had a red 1/2 blood heifer that, from what we've been told, will be ANY show heifer out there!  Some of the first chi-angus/lowline crosses hit the ground this spring and they are spectacular!  Watch for Bluey calves to hit the show circuit this fall. We'll be posting a slide show to our website soon with Bluey calves (so TJ...we hope to get something from you too!).  We have his fullblood  calves posted on our sale pages if anyone is interested in taking a look.

Hey, Nancy, I love this picture of Bluey in his "working clothes"!  He really looks better to me in this pic than in the one you use in most of his promo materials and for your avatar here.  He's very manly!!!  And, for Knabe, ALR didn't "change color" on Lowlines.  The red gene, both wild type and the better known recessive has long been present in the breed but not recognized nor emphasized until recently.  It has never been "disallowed" in the American Lowline Registry. Now a breeder has the choice to go red, black, or both.  Black is still "available"!!  <party>

Dori, I also like that pic of Bluey better than the other. 

Also, I may be wrong, but I think that Knabe was referring to the ACA (American Chinanina Association), not the ALR.