Bulls siring larger frames

[shortybreeder]

XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.

Supplement is anything that you have to pull cash out of your pocket and buy, as opposed to forages that are naturally grown in your pasture.  There are producers in every state in the country -Canada too- whose cattle graze stockpiled grass all winter. This takes a certain size cow.  Now depending on how big of cow you prefer is going to determine how much you have to supplement from this baseline point.

Not necessarily the size of the cow, as Gargan also pointed out. There are plenty of 1600lb+ cows on those canadian operations.

Grazing year round has a lot more to do with available landmass and grazing management. Sure, you can run more small cows on the same space through winter if that's the approach you want to take, but that doesn't mean larger cows can't do it.

Either you stock to the density you can support over winter, or you stock to the density you can support over summer. If you choose the latter, you will be buying inputs. Buying inputs for the winter doesn't make your cattle any less functional.

Look at the Australian cattle. They survive incredibly difficult environments in many areas, and their bulls are 6+ frame 2000lb+ while still producing cows that graze year-round.

I'm sorry, but your small cows are not the answer to saving the world. I'm not saying the big ones are, but your "objectivity" is demonstrably centered around a very narrow worldview, and your consistent attacks against anyone who thinks differently is ridiculous.

 

[RyanChandler]

There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.

 

[Gargan]

There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.

Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

 

[beebe]

25 years ago I quit feeding grain to my replacement heifers.  I fed them good but not great hay and in the spring I sold the ones that did not look good.  I sold about two thirds of my heifers.  25 years later I am making them run with the cows until they are 10 months old then I wean them.  After they are weaned I turn them out to run with the animals that I am finishing on grass.  A month before breeding I sort my replacements off.  I don't have that many that I need to sell because of their condition.  At that point is the first time they are on an equal playing field with what is in the pasture.  I don't have many cows that weigh over 1400 and probably average 1250.

 

[KSanburg]

25 years ago I quit feeding grain to my replacement heifers.  I fed them good but not great hay and in the spring I sold the ones that did not look good.  I sold about two thirds of my heifers.  25 years later I am making them run with the cows until they are 10 months old then I wean them.  After they are weaned I turn them out to run with the animals that I am finishing on grass.  A month before breeding I sort my replacements off.  I don't have that many that I need to sell because of their condition.  At that point is the first time they are on an equal playing field with what is in the pasture.  I don't have many cows that weigh over 1400 and probably average 1250.

Your cow's have adapted to your environment and operation which is basically what my point was in my original response. This isn't just evident only in livestock but in deer and elk, the farther north you go the larger body mass those animals are because they have to have that size to survive the harsh environmental conditions. And by enlarge those animals get no feed other than what they dig up through the snow. They are not managed for high performance production and winter death loss is higher than we would ever except in our operations.

 

[RyanChandler]

There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.

Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so there’s gotta be something to it

 

[shortybreeder]

25 years ago I quit feeding grain to my replacement heifers.  I fed them good but not great hay and in the spring I sold the ones that did not look good.  I sold about two thirds of my heifers.  25 years later I am making them run with the cows until they are 10 months old then I wean them.  After they are weaned I turn them out to run with the animals that I am finishing on grass.  A month before breeding I sort my replacements off.  I don't have that many that I need to sell because of their condition.  At that point is the first time they are on an equal playing field with what is in the pasture.  I don't have many cows that weigh over 1400 and probably average 1250.

Your cow's have adapted to your environment and operation which is basically what my point was in my original response. This isn't just evident only in livestock but in deer and elk, the farther north you go the larger body mass those animals are because they have to have that size to survive the harsh environmental conditions. And by enlarge those animals get no feed other than what they dig up through the snow. They are not managed for high performance production and winter death loss is higher than we would ever except in our operations.

This is very true. Also, controlling a heifer's diet as she develops in the first couple years has a significant impact on her mature weight. Taking away the grain was a great way to sort through those that can cut it and those that can't, props to you, Beebe. I'd still bet if you put the grain to those heifers they possess the genetics to be >1400lbs mature weight. Those are the genetics that are valuable in my mind. It certainly takes time to get to the point where you're at by doing hard culling, and I commend you for this.

 

[RyanChandler]

Pretty universally accepted that the harder you cull, the smaller your mature cow weights will get.  I’ve yet to meet anyone whose experienced otherwise. 

 

[Doc]

Pretty universally accepted that the harder you cull, the smaller your mature cow weights will get.  I’ve yet to meet anyone whose experienced otherwise.

I guess it would depend on what your cull criteria was.

 

[shortybreeder]

Pretty universally accepted that the harder you cull, the smaller your mature cow weights will get.  I’ve yet to meet anyone whose experienced otherwise.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but of the initial group of shorthorn heifers that I bought, the last one standing (because she was the only one to rebreed and calve on time every year) was the biggest cow. When she went to slaughter she weighed 1720lbs. The others were 1200-1400lbs and not a single one made it to their 3rd calf. And before you ask why she got culled, she finally went to slaughter because she was psycho and we were tired of dealing with her.
There's more to this than the final weight on the scale, and your single-trait selection propaganda is foolish. Smaller mature weights doesn't inherently mean higher efficiency. You can play the "outlier" card all you want, but there's more than enough examples of low mature weight cattle that would also be "a skeleton by the pond" e.g. mini herefords, lowline angus, the entire club calf industry.
Easy doability isn't limited to the 1100lb weight class you're so enamored with.

 

[RyanChandler]

Pretty universally accepted that the harder you cull, the smaller your mature cow weights will get.  I’ve yet to meet anyone whose experienced otherwise.

I guess it would depend on what your cull criteria was.

True, I assumed economically relevant traits were the implicit criteria. 

Pretty universally accepted that the harder you cull, the smaller your mature cow weights will get.  I’ve yet to meet anyone whose experienced otherwise.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but of the initial group of shorthorn heifers that I bought, the last one standing (because she was the only one to rebreed and calve on time every year) was the biggest cow. When she went to slaughter she weighed 1720lbs. The others were 1200-1400lbs and not a single one made it to their 3rd calf. And before you ask why she got culled, she finally went to slaughter because she was psycho and we were tired of dealing with her.
There's more to this than the final weight on the scale, and your single-trait selection propaganda is foolish. Smaller mature weights doesn't inherently mean higher efficiency. You can play the "outlier" card all you want, but there's more than enough examples of low mature weight cattle that would also be "a skeleton by the pond" e.g. mini herefords, lowline angus, the entire club calf industry.
Easy doability isn't limited to the 1100lb weight class you're so enamored with.

You haven't busted any bubble-- you presented a single anecdote.  And within the genetics you prefer, your experience is understandable as extreme mature cow weight isn't the only thing holding them back from commercial relevance.  Obviously you supplement your cows heavily, as evident by the 1700lber rebreeding, so for 12-1400lbs to be culled exposes an underlying level of dysfunction within your chosen genetics.  Cows that are getting more than their fill nutritionally and still not breeding back? This further exposes the problem with feeding cows like that as it concealed their subfertility.  Which was likely evident by their subfertile biotype to begin with but you don't believe in all that- 

Single trait selection--- Id contend that directly selecting for calving interval takes into consideration about as many traits as could be possibly evaluated.  Provided the cattleman culls based on economically relevant traits, calving interval tells us the whole story.  Cows that have inherent infertility, like those you described, have no calf and cull themselves. Cows with too much bw will either die or the calf will die at birth either way =culled.  If too small, higher chance of dying as well =culled. Not enough calving ease =>dead cows don't wean calves = culls.  Cows that are too big have too high maint requirements and will fail to rebreed =culled.  Cows that milk too much will get too thin and fail to rebreed = culled. 

 

[doc-sun]

There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.

Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so there’s gotta be something to it

DON'T FORGET THAT XBAR IS AN XPERT

 

[Gargan]

There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.

Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so there’s gotta be something to it

DON'T FORGET THAT XBAR IS AN XPERT

The usda should clone him and send 1 to every state...

 

[RyanChandler]

There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.

Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so there’s gotta be something to it

DON'T FORGET THAT XBAR IS AN XPERT

One of the biggest issues I'll push for in the commerical acceptance committee is the elimination of Maine influence in the breed.  I'll accomplish this specifically by advocating for Maines to be given their actual SH%, which is zero.  Once they're no longer given any preferential status, they're use will fade rapidly-- I'll make sure and attribute the success of my goal, once accomplished, to you personally. Cheers

 

[doc-sun]

There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.

Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so there’s gotta be something to it

DON'T FORGET THAT XBAR IS AN XPERT

One of the biggest issues I'll push for in the commerical acceptance committee is the elimination of Maine influence in the breed.  I'll accomplish this specifically by advocating for Maines to be given their actual SH%, which is zero.  Once they're no longer given any preferential status, they're use will fade rapidly-- I'll make sure and attribute the success of my goal, once accomplished, to you personally. Cheers
[/quote
(lol) AND YOU ACTUALLY THINK THEY WILL LISTEN TO YOU

 

[mark tenenbaum]

What about the elimination of the dairy influence-Still see alot of that O0

 

[Doc]

There aren't plenty of 1600lb cows grazing year round anywhere. 

I didn't just wake up one day and say you know what I think 1100lbs is the arbitrary number I like.  No-- Its after sifting through hundreds of cattle over 2 decades that it became overwhelmingly obvious what type of cow it takes to breed back when pasture forage is the only input provided. And coincidentally, when you talk to others who stopped feeding their beef cows like dairy cows- they also came to identity the PARTICULAR SIZE AND SHAPE beef cow that is most ideally suited. I've wintered cows on stockpile only.. Its obvious which size cows can cut it come spring and which ones can't..  Sure you may come across an outlier but thats not the standard worthy of discussion.  Try it for yourself.  You'll see there is some give and take as far as adjusting stocking rate but thats only between the thresholds of cow weights that work.  You can put a 2000lb cow out in my pasture even by herself and I guarantee you she will be nothing but a skeleton in the pond's edge by late summer.

Arent you around 25 yrs old? You were sifting cows at 5 years old? Maybe you are an impressive specimen xbar

No not around 25
Idk about impressive but if I died today Id go out having got about twice as much as most so there’s gotta be something to it

DON'T FORGET THAT XBAR IS AN XPERT

One of the biggest issues I'll push for in the commerical acceptance committee is the elimination of Maine influence in the breed.  I'll accomplish this specifically by advocating for Maines to be given their actual SH%, which is zero.  Once they're no longer given any preferential status, they're use will fade rapidly-- I'll make sure and attribute the success of my goal, once accomplished, to you personally. Cheers

Good luck with that ! (NOT) Why stop there ?  I for one, am very pleased with my Red Advantage/Red Reward cattle.

 

[beebe]

What about the elimination of the dairy influence-Still see alot of that O0

When you say dairy are you talking the dual purpose cattle?

 

[KSanburg]

After much thought and consideration I think XBAR must raise coriente. It's the only breed I can think of that meets his criteria, frame 3, 1100 pounders that can survive on dirt with no supplements or inputs.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

From the ones Ive seen on facebook they meet all the criteria other than frame score-sure looked like all they had to eat was dirt to me O0