Calving Ease: Is it all "bull"?

[common sense]

I have had so many phone calls in the past few weeks that I just wanted to make a few comments about calving ease bulls and breeding decisions.  Most of the people that I have had the opportunity to talk to about calving ease bulls are looking for the ultimate bull to use on their show heifer.  Besides wanting a live calf on the ground and a live cow to feed it  next spring they want one that stands a chance a being their next show prospect.  I can respect that. With the kind of money that most folks have invested I think that is the least we can wish for. 

What most people are asking is if a proven calving ease bull will guarantee them an easy birth.  The first question I always ask is how the female is bred.  Many are happy to say that she is out of a popular calving ease bull and so should be an easy calver too.  In most cases, however, when I ask more questions I usually find out that their heifer has some monstrous clubby genetics on the bottom of their pedigree.  What that tells me is that their heifer has a 50% chance of being incredibly HARD calving and/or throwing a monster.  So with that in mind, I point out to them that no matter what proven calving ease bull they use they still have a pretty good chance of having a larger calf.

Now, let's talk about calving ease bulls.  I have talked to a lot of people that went out a bought a new yearling "heifer bull" this spring.  I particularly love that term.  A YEARLING HEIFER BULL!  Now in my book nothing is a heifer bull if it has no progeny on the ground to justify calling it such.  If you truly want to rest a little easier you buy a bull that has at least one set of calves on the ground with proven birthweights that point towards it actually being a calving ease bull.  In my book there is just too much risk involved in turning out an unproven bull with my heifers.  You not only have no proof on the bull side but if your females have any genetics in the top or bottom of their pedigree that lends to large calves chances are your vet is gonna love you next spring.

Proven Calving Ease Bulls: Are they 100% a sure thing?  NO WAY!  I have a cow that will throw a 110 - 140 lb calf every year without fail. I have never assisted a birth but she makes monsters.  If I bred her to a proven calving ease bull with an aveage BW of 75 pounds does that mean that she will have a small calf?  NO!  That means that I probably have a 50% chance of having the smallest calf she has ever raised.  I would guess in the 90+/- range but have never used a calving ease bull on her.  I have had a lot of reports on a bull that we are promoting and people are thrilled with the birthweights.  For the most part the calves are averaging in the upper 70's out of mature cows and heifers.  There have been a few in the low 90's.  Does this worry me?  No.  You have to factor in the ENTIRE picture. Cow pedigree (top and BOTTOM), female body condition and frame size, if female was a recip, environment and numerous other factors have to be measured in. 

I have used a club calf sire extensively that has never had a calf born on our farm over 90 lbs. In fact, most are in the upper 70's and low 80's.  Would I use him on heifers?  NO WAY!  I have pulled more of those calves than any other sire group.  Big heads and square shoulders completely eliminate him from the calving ease category.  He's not being promoted that way so I am not complaining. I simply want to point out that light birth weights do not make a calving ease sire either, even if he is proving to keep the calves under 90 pounds.

So, my advice is...
    Know and understand your female's ENTIRE pedigree...not just who her sire is.
    Don't use a "new" bull that claims he is a calving ease sire...especially if his mother isn't remotely calving ease oriented.
    When you buy a bull to use on your heifers study BOTH sides of the pedigree and spend the money on a proven bull!
    Go look at calves and/or the real bull before you make your breeding decisions.
    At the very least, pick up your phone and talk to the bull owner.  In most cases they won't steer you wrong and they will help you make wise decisions.

Juli Nelson

 

[red]

Juli- I have to agree w/ based on my own cows. I've spoken many times that my cows have BIG calves. When I use an easy calving bull I can still get large calves. For example last year I used Money Man twice. One was 100# & the other 106#'s. I know he's typically throws small calves but not for me last year. Last year I bred him back to same cows & so far have an 87# calf. Gizmo which is also know as an easy calver threw a 115# calf.

I can't blame the bulls for my large BW's I know the cow has a huge factor as well as environment & feed stuffs. All I want is for the cow to have these calves unassisted & healthy.

bull= 50% cow= 50%

no, I'm not <party> you but  I have seen it many times here.

Red

 

[kanshow]

Thank you for posting this!!!!  Very well said!  

AI bulls -  I look at accuracy in conjunction with the numbers.   Example - Dream On is a 15.1 CE with a .93 accuracy, Pacesetter is 17.3 with a .68 acc.      That to me means that I can use Dream On & expect more predictability on his CE.   That's not to say that next year, Pacesetter's accuracy may go up and he proves himself to be a better CE bull.    

Buying a bull..  Like you said.. the young bulls are unproven..  

And the most often forgotten piece of the calving ease equation.. the cow...   If my cow has a CE of -5, there are 50% of the CE genetics that are coming from her .. at that -5.  

 

[TJ]

So with that in mind, I point out to them that no matter what proven calving ease bull they use they still have a pretty good chance of having a larger calf.

 


I don't know.     OK, I will admit that even a little birth weight could be made bigger on certain cows.  However, an ET calf sired by "Get Serious"  (WHR Sonny son) out of a full sized recip only weighed 54 lbs.  The dam was a Lowline cow.  A full brother wasn't much bigger.  A Sunseeker out of the same Lowline donor & a full sized recip was in the 60's.  All were male calves.  I've got a heifer out of a Sin City daughter with a 42 lb. birth weight.  Yes, a fluke could happen, but no reason to believe that a Lowline bull couldn't do the same thing on a full sized cow with some "birth weight".   

Proven Calving Ease Bulls: Are they 100% a sure thing?  NO WAY! 

I doubt that anything is 100%, but is 99+% close enough.    



With that said, I do agree it's not all the bull... 50% comes from the female & nutrition/condition certainly does play a role.  Some females do have bigger calves than other females.

 

[farwest]

We don't even have to guess where you are going with this one TJ.  I have a question.  Noticed you talking the other day of the frame 4 that did well at the ky beef expo.  congrats. also you talked of a frame 3.  I have a real nece donor cow that is a frame 6 or 6 and a half.  If i wanted to flush her lowline to get a say frame 4 you speak of .  Are there any frame 1 genetics out there.  I mean i would ai her, wouldn't need a stepladder or any thing.  Just wondering how small they go to moderate quickly.  thanks

 

[TJ]

We don't even have to guess where you are going with this one TJ.  I have a question.  Noticed you talking the other day of the frame 4 that did well at the ky beef expo.  congrats. also you talked of a frame 3.   I have a real nece donor cow that is a frame 6 or 6 and a half.  If i wanted to flush her lowline to get a say frame 4 you speak of .  Are there any frame 1 genetics out there.  I mean i would ai her, wouldn't need a stepladder or any thing.  Just wondering how small they go to moderate quickly.  thanks

Thanks for the congrats! 

Doc Holliday is a frame 1.  I've haven't seen him in a while, but he's 49 inches & about 1,500 give or take.  He's naturally bred 2,000 lb. Angus cows, so you wouldn't need a step ladder.      

Here is a picture of the Shorty + that won Res. at the Expo & below her is a pic of a Doc Holliday out of a Tarentaise cow that's a 6 something frame... I don't know exactly, but she's a good sized Tarentaise cow.  The Shorty + was 10 months old... the Lowline X was around a year.   Also, Tarentaise mature early, so they grow quickly, but they "peak out" quicker.  Shelby Olson is standing behind both animals... you be the judge on the height, but they are both around the same frame score... a 4 something & only a little over a months difference in age in those 2 pictures.  They are currently in the same pen & 1/2 bloods got her by a little bit, but she's also 5 months older.  BTW, the frame 3 wasn't out of Doc, it was out of a smaller, shorter bull... she's not as big as the heifer that is pictured, although she's a little longer.   

 

[farwest]

Interesting.  I know i'm getting off the path here of this thread, but not really because i realize lowlines would be extreme calving ease.  TJ, what do you think the survivability of 40 or 50 lb. calves such as lowlines are compared ot say 90 lb. calves that are born out in the open in section pastures where the cows have to pretty much do it on their owne when it is about 10 degrees out with the wind blowing.  Now there would some protection.  My point is do you notice these smaller at birth have to be pampered more because of the smaller size from the cold. 

 

[shortdawg]

Great posts ! I saw in Sullivan's Catalog where he has some traits and the % inheritable they are and BW was 40 %. I don't know where that info came from but it was interesting. If that is true I guess 60 % would be from other causes including management.

 

[TJ]

Interesting.  I know i'm getting off the path here of this thread, but not really because i realize lowlines would be extreme calving ease.   TJ, what do you think the survivability of 40 or 50 lb. calves such as lowlines are compared ot say 90 lb. calves that are born out in the open in section pastures where the cows have to pretty much do it on their owne when it is about 10 degrees out with the wind blowing.  Now there would some protection.  My point is do you notice these smaller at birth have to be pampered more because of the smaller size from the cold. 

Actually, that's a pretty good question.  So far the cold hasn't bothered them any worse than my dad's 80-90 lbers. (and some heavier than that), but we don't get super cold here.   I had an "almost" 30 something pound fullblood born here in early December out in a pasture.  I don't remember the actual temp, but it wasn't exactly pleasant out... pretty frosty actually.  I know when he was only a week or so old the high was around zero & in the single digits here quite a bit.  It did OK, but it also had some protection.  However, all the Canadian's that I used to know, all wanted bigger birth weights than 75 lbs. for that exact reason.  The only time we really get into trouble here is when it's around 32 & raining/snowing.  Dry frozen ground is much better to calve on than slightly warmer very wet ground.  "Damp combined with cold" get us into trouble, but that's with any new calf regardless of size.  I suppose that if you lived in the Dakota's or Canada & calved in Jan or Feb, you might have some potential trouble.  I don't live in an area like that, so I don't know how it would work, but I suspect the calves would be bigger in a colder environment too.  I'm thinking that Doug Schmit had a Jan born 1/2 blood bull at Louisville.  Somebody like him would be a better person to ask.  He was a co-operator for Deiter Bros.  I try not to calve in Jan or Feb & our high seldom gets below zero here.  We do have wind & plenty of moisture though.

BTW, most of my 1/2 bloods are 55 - 65'ish.  I seldom get a 40 something halfblood.  Northward & westward from here, you would likely get some 70's.  You may even get a slightly bigger mature animal too.   

 

[TJ]

Great posts ! I saw in Sullivan's Catalog where he has some traits and the % inheritable they are and BW was 40 %. I don't know where that info came from but it was interesting. If that is true I guess 60 % would be from other causes including management.

I don't know how Universities come up with all that stuff either, not even sure I buy it 100% (although it may be perfectly accurate), but that is interesting.  I can tell you that a 65 pounder in southern Georgia is probably going to be 75 pounder in Montana.  Nutrition & climate definitely play a role.  I've also heard that the "milking ability" of a cow can play a role too.  Along the same lines, I've heard that heavier milkers require more feed year round even when they are not milking... I found that very interesting & I based on what I've seen... I believe it!   

 

[justme]

TJ I respect that you have a passion for lowlines...I have a passion for Maines.  I just don't see Lowlines as the "cure all" for the cattle industry, or at least not my area of it.  I believe all breeds of cattle have there place in the world.  I just cann't see me being able to sell show calves out of them.  I don't think I've ever seen classes for lowlines in any shows but the majors (at least not in MO or OH). 

I think if you do your homework on your breeding choices, and manage your cows you can obtain a calving ease calf without going so extreme.  I don't care what breed you raise or what bull you use, there is always a chance of a pull.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

I have two proven senior herd sires. One is a calving ease/maternal bull and the other is a power/growth bull. When used on the same cows, there is an average in my herd of 9 pounds difference in birth weight. Like anything else there are always exceptions to every rule, but the heaviest calf out of the calving ease bull has been 84 pounds, the lightest 64 pounds. The lightest calf from the growth bull has been 74 pounds and the heaviest was 92 pounds. Coincedentally or not both of the "big" calves were out of the same cow. If you know your genetics well, I think you can generally predict whether the calf will be large or small at birth. RW

 

[common sense]

TJ, I think it would only be fair to compare apples to apples.  Just curious, but if you were to study within the Lowline industry would you consider all of the lowline bulls to be calving ease bulls when you are breeding them to lowline cattle? Or are they considered calving ease when they are being bred to cattle that are double the frame score of the bull?  I am not really familiar with the genetics of the lowlines or how they factor their epd's.  Do they have a way to distinguish the calves registered out of lowline bulls as to weather they are out of other breeds versus lowline?  I would think that would make a huge difference. For example, if you took a lowline bull and AI bred 100 head of full blood Salers cows and they all calved unassisted with 70 lb calves would that be a fair test and would that rightly affect the lowline bull's epds versus using him on 100 lowline cows that all had c-sections and 50lb calves?

I am being sincere and hope this doesn't sound wrong.  I am seriously curious how the lowline breed registry  keeps that straight.  It would make a big difference on the true epd.

Juli

 

[TJ]

TJ I respect that you have a passion for lowlines...I have a passion for Maines.  I just don't see Lowlines as the "cure all" for the cattle industry, or at least not my area of it.  I believe all breeds of cattle have there place in the world.  I just cann't see me being able to sell show calves out of them.  I don't think I've ever seen classes for lowlines in any shows but the majors (at least not in MO or OH). 

I think if you do your homework on your breeding choices, and manage your cows you can obtain a calving ease calf without going so extreme.  I don't care what breed you raise or what bull you use, there is always a chance of a pull.

If you like Maines stick with Maines.  They are good cattle with a place too.  Nothing wrong with raising 100% Maines.  And I personally think that you have some nice cattle, BTW.  However, I was talking "calving ease", not talking "Maines".  The title of the thread is "Calving Ease: Is it all "bull"?"  I don't think it's all bull, but I know what a Lowline bull will produce & I've yet to see that 1st elephant sized calf, even out of cows that could have 100+ lbers if bred to their siblings.  I'm talking Tarentaise, Charolais, Red Angus & crossbred females all calved out here.  I know others who have calved out Shorthorn, Maine, etc.  Bottom line, the calves might be a little bigger, but no baby elephants yet.  Could it happen?  Eventually it probably will if somebody breeds one to a Heatwave daughter, but even that would be a fluke.  Still, flukes eventually do happen, so I agree 100% with the OP on that.    

Correct me if I am wrong, but when did I ever say that Lowline Angus were the cure all?   Maine's aren't the cure all either.  No breed is.  But, if you want calving ease, a Lowline will get the job done & the calves probably wont be nearly as short as you think.  

RE shows... Not many Lowline shows yet, I'll admit that.  But, the breed has only been in the US for barely over 10 years.  The first National Show was 2001... not even 10 years ago & it's now well over a 200 head show.  Within the next year or 2, that should all begin to change, at least it should in the eastern US.  A couple of years ago, we didn't have shows at the NAILE or the NILE or Houston.  I think the first one in Kansas City was 2004.  But, we have at least 6 shows planned for the eastern US & probably more within the next year.  But, the thing is there is a Res. Champion AOB heifer that is a frame 4.  She will not measure 45.7 inches @ 10 months (which is a frame 5)... no way, no how.  If she won Res. AOB, why couldn't a frame 4 Lowline cross win AOB too?   A 3/4 Lowline heifer dominated the AOB shows in Arkansas last year.  I realize that KY & Arkansas aren't Missouri & Kansas, but a Lowline was Division winner in the AOB Show at the World Beef Expo last year.  And there is always the market heifers & I think that Lowline X Clubby composites would do OK in the market heifer shows.   

Re going to an extreme... people in the 1940's & 50's would have considered frame 6.5 cows to be an extreme.  My dad also told me that when he was growing up in the 40's & 50's that they hardly ever assisted a calf & never even thought about owning a winch! 

Re pulling any breed or pulling any bulls calves... I wont argue with you, because you are correct.  While I can tell you about mulitple 100% calf crops, if you calve out enough calves, you'll eventually have one coming backwards or something.  No bull is 100%, that's why I said 99+%.  Even if it was only 97.5%, that is still a lot better than a lot of people do. 

Bottom line... I haven't said 1 word that can't be backed up.  If Lowline Angus aren't for you, I have no problem with that... don't use them... I'm not forcing anybody, trust me.  But, they are calving ease bulls, no question about that & this thread was about calving ease.   

 

[justme]

Just seems like the answer to everything is lowlines anymore.  Just my opinion.

I haven't pulled a calf in 2.5 years.  One c-section but it wasn't due to size it was backwards and twisted.  I am very selective on calving ease in my cows and bulls due to being here alone while husband works off the farm.  BUT I don't say maines maines maines.  Honestly I could breed my cows to a Jersey and get calving ease but I don't.

I just think everyone has a different purpsose in the cattle industry, and I can honestly say lowlines wouldn't work in our world here.

 

[kanshow]

Gidget brings up an interesting point.  If all we wanted was a cow freshener... breed them to a Jersey or some other small framed breed.  However, most of us want it all..  a live calf who is either very marketable or showable.  I know it's been said before but in my part of the world, the price deduction on anything smaller than around a 5 is tremendous.  Sure I could change my entire program & marketing plan but that isn't feasible.    We wont' even talk about showing a smaller framed calf..

 

[simtal]

what happens when cattle that calving ease genetics bred to calving ease bulls have big calves?

 

[P-F]

Great posts ! I saw in Sullivan's Catalog where he has some traits and the % inheritable they are and BW was 40 %. I don't know where that info came from but it was interesting. If that is true I guess 60 % would be from other causes including management.

This is off topic a little but in one of my genetic classes I was given a list of how heritable some traits were, and your weights and carcass qualities are highly heritable where as structure had a low heritability., Which is why it is so important to start with a sound one, b/c it takes generations to fix structure where as carcass quality can be improved in one!

 

[Chap]

BE CAREFUL with SINGLE TRAIT SELECTION!  
What happens when you continually line up low birth weight genetics?  you get low birth weights, but you may also give up maternal calving ease.  I have heard numerous reports form commericial men about their angus heifers being harder calving than at any time they can remember.  CE epd (Calving Ease Direct)  is much more important when evaluationg how a bull will actually calve out and MCE (Maternal Calving Ease - how easy a bulls daughters calve) needs to be evaluated as well, to be assured that the retained daughters aren't just low bw , but actually have the capability to have a calf.  
I have a PB Simmental bull,CNS Exclusive, that is terrible on his BW epd, but his calving ease number is surprisingly high considering his recorded bw's.  Calves come big (in lbs of live calf) but are born with minimal difficulty.  his percentile breakdown is 5.7 CE (top 60%) 4.5 BW (bottom 5%), 77.3 YW (top 10%) and 4.5 MCE (top 20%).  I can work with a bull like this, if I like his kind.  In my business,  light muscled, ugly ones are hard to sell, so I will give,  to get some take.  There are outliers in any population, if you want it all, you will have to dig deep, but can probably find something to fit most of your needs and expectations.  

 

[aj]

Great topic. From a Shorthorn perpective I might throw this in. In alot of ways I have been guilty of following trends. My Shorthorn herd used to have a average of 100#. Using Red Angus and a smaller bwt bull I have gotten it down to 90# in about 4 years. Once you have a big bwt in a pedigree it will be there for a long time. You can try and breed it out over time...but it will show up 3 generations later,on occasion, once in while in a large number of cattle. Iam to honest to be a salesman but I had a 128 # calf unaasisted this year and a 66# Durham red calf. There is a sliver of truth to the shape of a calf and enviroment and all this stuff. However from a commercial standpoint this is horsecrap. 75% of people who fall back on calf shape and environment being the problem...it is the cattle that are the problem. The Shorthorn breed has a big bwt problem. I haven't bought a Shorthorn herd sire for 5-10 years cause I never get what I think I think I'm buying. I raise my own. Even if you buy a a bull with an honest 90# bw, if his dam had a 110# bw,you are going nowhere fast. The pedigree says it all..if its honest. The shorthorn breed is a great breed. The cows can lay down and have a 128# calf unnassisted and whatnot. But damit we need to try and at least aim for smaller Bwt's. But all the showring peole talk about the shape of the calf and the enviroment and on and on but |||||I don't buy it. Northern cattle will have bigger bwts. no doubt. But unless we change genectics in the breed the bwt's won't change. Everybody does the lie on the bwt charge hard on the worthless wda monument of stupidity and on and on. I am looking after a neighbors cows cause he went to the big twelve tournament. They are on cornstalks in the open and I haul them water. They are small black cows bred to moderate puke to look at assless red angus bull. The one ole cow had a calf last night in 0 degree windchill and it is up and ready to take on the 101st and 82 airborn division hand to hand at noon. That is the cattle business. Big asses don't mean anything in real world cattle. But go ahead and blast those assless cattle that qualify for cab and make the shorthorn cattle flunk the test.