cattle prod

[Aussie]

Well it is great to see some bickering back on SP again even if it is over something as trivial as this. A hot shot as Jeff is getting at is a tool when used in the right hands on a small % of cattle has a real place. The trouble with hot shots is many people instead of proding the 1 or 2 in 100 that need it the, I am master, power trip gets to them and every cow gets a hit. Used correctly a very good tool on the farm better one quick hit with a hot shot than constant bashing with a stick.

 

[CAB]

I promise I don't mean to be rude but how do you convince a cow that getting immobilized and poked with a needles before some guy sticks his hand up her butt was her idea?

I thought you were talkig about taxpayers for a second.

Both Jeff's and Mark's response are Classic!!!

I think design and common sense go a long, long ways when working cattle. Try to think like the cattle would if possible.

 

[GoWyo]

For my permanent set up, I am working on a "Bud Box."  It won't have the double alley at the beginning, but will use basic design.  It is pretty cool to watch this one work.  This video shows the set up with a double alley at the beginning.  May not eliminate the need for a prod on the certain percentage, but helps things flow much better.

Processing - The Bud Box (BQA)

 

[GoWyo]

Followup to the above.

Daniels Bud box

 

[BTDT]

I want to apologize for my last post. It was a poorly worded and I fear a bit harsh.
While I understand the need (?) for the use of a hotshot, they are way too overused and abused because people get in a hurry and are impatient. 
My fear is, with the abuse of the hotshot, and the animal rights folks, it is a disaster waiting to happen. We need to be able to curb or eliminate the use of such practices for the sake of the industry.  I have been on farms where every single animal is zapped long and hard just because they weren't moving fast enough. That is not right by any standard.  And once humans learn there is a "easy way", they tend to over use and abuse it. That is simply human nature.

I was raised with mutual respect for my livestock, which means we respect/trust each other. Since this is how the livestock were raised, I am fortunate to have cattle that "know the system" from day one and I have no trouble. It was not a overnight success, but a process.

The problem with most people is they do not know what "appropriate" means. (Just look at the way some people dress to go into town! Anyone see the online "walmart people" threads??)

 

[Pleasant Grove Farms]

I just have to reply on this topic because it is one I feel so strongly about.

Never, ever do we ever allow cattle prods to be used; our cows go up the same alley and the same chute probable up to 10 times a year for
shots, worming, put in CIDERS, pull CIDERS, on and on.  They know for a fact that not too much good happens there but surprisingly enough, there
are a good number of them that voluntarily race up the chute, like they just want to get it overwith; there are some cows that are already shaking their heads and snorting in the holding pens in anticipation of the shot they will get in their necks.  But we have very few that are slow or refuse to go up. 

We try very hard to accomodate the animal; there are some show heifers that are very hard to get up the alley and into the chute so we bar them and do what we need to do just in the alley.  I have one or two just cows that are terrified to go up there but they are tame and I have given shots or even AIed them standing in the holding pen; they KNOW this needs done but if they could speak, they would tell us how terrified they are to go up that alley and into that chute....why?? because of the noise, they are claustrophobic?  who knows, but they are terrified because we can see them shaking.....the last thing in this whole world that animal needs is an electric prod.

I truly believe that cows WANT to do what we ask of them; however, because they don't understand what that is or they are too frightened by the circumstances, they are unable to to do it for us;
believe me, I have more than once taken a prod away from a vet or a trucker or anyone else who is so unfortunate as to show one by our chutes.

 

[RyanChandler]

I want to apologize for my last post. It was a poorly worded and I fear a bit harsh.
While I understand the need (?) for the use of a hotshot, they are way too overused and abused because people get in a hurry and are impatient. 
My fear is, with the abuse of the hotshot, and the animal rights folks, it is a disaster waiting to happen. We need to be able to curb or eliminate the use of such practices for the sake of the industry.  I have been on farms where every single animal is zapped long and hard just because they weren't moving fast enough. That is not right by any standard.  And once humans learn there is a "easy way", they tend to over use and abuse it. That is simply human nature.

I was raised with mutual respect for my livestock, which means we respect/trust each other. Since this is how the livestock were raised, I am fortunate to have cattle that "know the system" from day one and I have no trouble. It was not a overnight success, but a process.

The problem with most people is they do not know what "appropriate" means. (Just look at the way some people dress to go into town! Anyone see the online "walmart people" threads??)

Appropriate is a subjective term. My cows stay tight through the lane and lunge into the shoot as soon as the gate comes up. They are familiar with the consequences of not staying tight and then balking at the gate.

 

[BTDT]

I do not want my cows to "lunge toward the chute", nor do I want them "tight". I want my cows to be comfortable, and move forward when there is space. They do not push, crowd or strain the alley or pens. I also do not want them to race out of the chute and take off. My cows wait for the head gate to open, they then WALK out and usually wander to the hay bale or waterer.  Some of them even turn around and try and "help out" by nosing around.

Pleasant Grove Farms seem to operate the way I would approve and surely have cows that I would enjoy!!  Funny, how the treatment of cows is a direct correlation on how they cooperate with their humans!

 

[DL]

Low stress cattle handling is (totally) dependent on the attitude of the human, not the number of cows worked. People who use aversive handling techniques always have an excuse for why they use them and tend to belittle those who do things differently. The cow doesn't have to read Temple Grandin or Bud Williams for the human to successfully use low stress handling but the human has to develop a different mind set.

 

[JSchroeder]

You can get defensive about the belittling if you wish but you’re far from innocent in that regard.  You are the one that told people they just don't understand how cattle think because they use one of the most common cattle working tools in existence.  It’s not just once or twice, go back and read your replies when this subject comes up.  You’ve gone so far as to resort to misandry when people didn’t agree with you.  People are asking legitimate questions about hot shots and you repeatedly drop in to let them know they’re just being impatient or don’t understand how cattle think.

That’s just flat out not true.

The reason people that use hot shots “always have an excuse” for using them is because they are an appropriate tool in certain situations.  That’s no more an excuse than saying I “always have an excuse” for using my truck to drive somewhere.

Low stress handling does not mean that a cattle prod is never an appropriate tool and you are misleading people when you claim the two are mutually exclusive.

To follow your lead, perhaps you should go to the Temple Grandin website as you have advised others to in the past.  Even she says that a “reasonable attainable goal for minimum electric prod use is 1 to 5% of the cattle at a squeeze chute”.

What do you think you know about low stress cattle handling that she doesn’t?

 

[MCC]

Honest Injun, I am not trying to pick a fight. Temple Grandin has some good ideas and some good layouts for handling cattle. That said, I used to work at a Colo. State Univ. research feedlot until they closed it down. We had several grad students that had taken her class come down from time to time to help work the cattle. They were the most worthless students that ever showed up! They were ANTI-HOTSHOT! If a steer went down in the chute instead of using a hotshot to get them up and out they would talk to them and pet them until they decided to get up 45 min. later. If you have time for that by all means do it. I on the other hand have other things to do. (argue)

 

[DL]

Honest Injun, I am not trying to pick a fight. Temple Grandin has some good ideas and some good layouts for handling cattle. That said, I used to work at a Colo. State Univ. research feedlot until they closed it down. We had several grad students that had taken her class come down from time to time to help work the cattle. They were the most worthless students that ever showed up! They were ANTI-HOTSHOT! If a steer went down in the chute instead of using a hotshot to get them up and out they would talk to them and pet them until they decided to get up 45 min. later. If you have time for that by all means do it. I on the other hand have other things to do. (argue)

They may have been Temple Grandin's students but they weren't using Temple Grandin's methods - as usual the human, not the cow, is the problem 

 

[MCC]

OK If you say so.

 

[frostback]

Low stress cattle handling is (totally) dependent on the attitude of the human, not the number of cows worked. People who use aversive handling techniques always have an excuse for why they use them and tend to belittle those who do things differently. The cow doesn't have to read Temple Grandin or Bud Williams for the human to successfully use low stress handling but the human has to develop a different mind set.

Pot meet kettle....

 

[Limiman12]

I will just add this.....  I just caught and AIed a former show heifer that we bought bred.  When we got her she was VERY cagey.  Not wild, just cagey.  We have had her for four months, in that time we have flushed her, so that was a dozen or so unpleasant times through a chute, but every time we caught her she got a gallon or so of grain.  Tonight after being sorted off for most of the afternoon, she saw me coming with the bucket and ran into the catch pen.    I locked her in, went and got the straw of semen, when I go back I opened the souix pen we have for maternity and AIing and synching work, as soon as she saw me open it she walked into the head gate.  This is a cow that three months ago was a bitch to get caught.....  I AIed her, gave her a few handfuls of calf crunch and hope to not catch her again till fall.  You can change their behavior, and depending on your situation, a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down!

 

[BTDT]

Jeff - The problem is most, many people do not know what "appropriate use" is.  Define it for me please.
For myself, appropriate use is if the cows life is endangered, such as stuck somewhere or down after a hard pull.  For myself, if a cow refuses to go down an alley or into a chute, I have done something to create an issue, so I fix it. I do not fix the cow. As limmiman said, you can change their attitude by changing their minds.
Low stress handling comes from the humans and is transferred to the cows. Beating on a cow with a stick is just as bad as using a hot shot. I have seen people use a stick with a plastic sack tied to the end and that works fantastic!

To say if someone attends a Grandin class they are automatically an expert on working cattle is asinine.  I have attending computer programming classes, but I still have no idea how to write a computer program. I have also attended organic, all natural food source seminars, but I certainly didn't "buy into it", and therefore am not "practicing" what they taught.

Again, my fear is that with the public having more and more influence on how we produce food, we MUST get smarter, better, more humane at what we do. Unless of course, you have no cares about the future generations and their ability to produce food.
(Does gestations crates ring a bell?)

 

[JSchroeder]

Appropriate use in this context, within our operation, means that you use it when all other reasonable measures have been taken.  That includes attempting to put pressure on various points, escalating to twisting the tail and other physical measures.  It doesn't mean waiting 45 minutes for a cow to go through an alley while everyone, including the other cattle wait on you because you think a 1/2 second pop with a hot shot is inhumane.  We have one cow that will literally stand in the alley an entire night rather than go through the same chute over 100 head went through with no issues.

When it becomes clear that she isn't going to move, a slight pop of a well charged hot shot does the trick in 95% of the cases.  As Temple Grandin's own site says, that's only necessary in about 1-5% of cases.  We don't use it even that much.

Appropriate use in other operations, with different types and volumes of cattle (bought, raised, etc.) and different facilities, would mean something else.  It's just plain old ignorant to claim that you know what's appropriate in all situations because you know what works in yours.

If the public is going to care about cattle prods, you'll need to shut down just about every auction barn in existence because the amount of usage I'm talking is absolutely nothing compared to that.

You guys are going way overboard and misleading others when you tell people they should never have a need for a cattle prod.  I'm actually interested in what you think you know about low stress cattle handling that Grandin doesn't.

 

[knabe]

The public is incapable of standing up to the scrutiny they want to impose on others.

What about cows that kick calves or don't nurse their babies.

If we just save one calf from death or pain any law we introduce is worth it.

If we just save one child should be the guiding logic for all laws.

 

[RyanChandler]

Jeff - The problem is most, many people do not know what "appropriate use" is.  Define it for me please.



Again, my fear is that with the public having more and more influence on how we produce food, we MUST get smarter, better, more humane at what we do. Unless of course, you have no cares about the future generations and their ability to produce food.
(Does gestations crates ring a bell?)

Only you can define what's  appropriate for yourself.  That's a fundamental flaw that you seek others' definition.

Are you saying you oppose hot shots but support gestation crates?

 

[BTDT]

I am not trying to mislead anyone. I will also not support the general use of hot shots.
In my neck of the woods, several people have gotten fired from working at a salebarn because of use of hotshots. I also can name 3 semi drivers that are banned from hauling hogs to a certain facility due to hotshot use.
I used gestation crates as an example of what the public opinion can do when they decide what we do is "wrong".
Many livestock owners around here no longer need nor require the use of hotshots to work their cattle. To say it is impossible to work cattle without one is irresponsible and misleading to people also.

But, I can understand those that have relied on them in the past, and possibly were taught to use them by their fathers, have a hard time adjusting to a new technique or way of doing things. Again, that is human nature.  So I will leave it at that.

Thanks for the exchange of ideas.