Changes in your breed......say the last 10-15 years

[mark tenenbaum]

You ever seen an Angus seedstock producer offer mongrel bulls in their sale? I didn't think so. /// Back in the Amerifax or whatever days-Do you really think bulls like Grubbs Mckensie were ANGUS? And some of the seedstock I see may not be mongrels-they just LOOK LIKE Mongrels. And a blue roan is about as pure an F-1 as any-very hard to produce and anybody with a pulse knows that they are Shorthorn X Angus in the mix Didnt you post some Beefmaster crosses-which showed how your cattle crossed to produce mongrels?? Talk about mutts-beefmasters have to take the cake-unfortunately for all you purists out there they are also really useful cattle O0

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

To me, the question is....how could looks like a double muscle Shorthorn!
My idea of double muscle is clear, and many bulls saw on 2010 Congress and on the last Shorthorn Sires UK bull catalogue are double muscle!
But what is the limit for this!
Also, in my understanding of a double muscle bulls, all show direct North American ancestors....soo....

in the UK the beef shorthorns have a few with double muscling coming into the breed

According to vol. 13 2017 Beef Shorthorn Journal from the U.K., pg. 13, double muscling is undesirable in both males and females!
It lies to the Society to enforce the rules, genetic testing?
I wonder if their, U.K., scrapping of genetic/purebred percentages won't be their downfall? I think breeders worldwide want to know that!

a lot of it is a pride thing breeders wouldnt accept what they have is less than 100% pure so they scraped the percentage on the pedigrees

it says double muscling its undesirable but they are selling well

 

[aj]

In Colorado,Kansas,Nebraska, and Missouri. I only know of one Shorthorn Bull sale......Lovings. The Nebraska Classic would be the only other one and it is kind of a social event. I don't think Texas or Oklahoma has one either unless you consider the few production sales that sell 3 or 4 bulls. As far as I'm concerned Marty has put together something that nobody else could pull off.

 

[RyanChandler]

You ever seen an Angus seedstock producer offer mongrel bulls in their sale? I didn't think so. /// Back in the Amerifax or whatever days-Do you really think bulls like Grubbs Mckensie were ANGUS? And some of the seedstock I see may not be mongrels-they just LOOK LIKE Mongrels. And a blue roan is about as pure an F-1 as any-very hard to produce and anybody with a pulse knows that they are Shorthorn X Angus in the mix Didnt you post some Beefmaster crosses-which showed how your cattle crossed to produce mongrels?? Talk about mutts-beefmasters have to take the cake-unfortunately for all you purists out there they are also really useful cattle O0

Beefmaster is a stabilized breed. Operative word: stabilized.  F1 Blue roans should be great cows; but they're not seedstock. Seedstock is what was used to create the f1.  These are pretty fundamental concepts. Somewhat surprised you keep tripping up here.

In Colorado,Kansas,Nebraska, and Missouri. I only know of one Shorthorn Bull sale......Lovings. The Nebraska Classic would be the only other one and it is kind of a social event. I don't think Texas or Oklahoma has one either unless you consider the few production sales that sell 3 or 4 bulls. As far as I'm concerned Marty has put together something that nobody else could pull off.

Absolutely.  They put on a nice sale w/ a solid offering.  I was the volume buyer there a few years ago and follow the sale every year.  That said, I don't know that their inclusion of crossbred and mongrel bulls has been the make or break in any of them.  Personally, Id rather see them not offered as their inclusion gives the perception, at least to me, that SH's somehow can't stand on their own as a maternal outcross and that the 'angus' (or w/e?) influence is needed.  It's just not a practice I've ever seen from a premier Angus or Hereford seedstock producer and one hope to see less and less of from Shorthorn producers. 

 

[Hopster1000]

To me, the question is....how could looks like a double muscle Shorthorn!
My idea of double muscle is clear, and many bulls saw on 2010 Congress and on the last Shorthorn Sires UK bull catalogue are double muscle!
But what is the limit for this!
Also, in my understanding of a double muscle bulls, all show direct North American ancestors....soo....

I wouldn't agree. The first picture is of probably one of the heavier muscled shorthorns from the recent Stirling sale. The other 3 pictures show double muscled Belgian Blue, Limousin and Charolais. These animals are quite normal in the UK. Do the shorthorns you recall compare to these?
I also think a lot of the North American bulls have been tested free of it.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

You ever seen an Angus seedstock producer offer mongrel bulls in their sale? I didn't think so. /// Back in the Amerifax or whatever days-Do you really think bulls like Grubbs Mckensie were ANGUS? And some of the seedstock I see may not be mongrels-they just LOOK LIKE Mongrels. And a blue roan is about as pure an F-1 as any-very hard to produce and anybody with a pulse knows that they are Shorthorn X Angus in the mix Didnt you post some Beefmaster crosses-which showed how your cattle crossed to produce mongrels?? Talk about mutts-beefmasters have to take the cake-unfortunately for all you purists out there they are also really useful cattle O0

Beefmaster is a stabilized breed. Operative word: stabilized.  F1 Blue roans should be great cows; but they're not seedstock. Seedstock is what was used to create the f1.  These are pretty fundamental concepts. Somewhat surprised you keep tripping up here.

In Colorado,Kansas,Nebraska, and Missouri. I only know of one Shorthorn Bull sale......Lovings. The Nebraska Classic would be the only other one and it is kind of a social event. I don't think Texas or Oklahoma has one either unless you consider the few production sales that sell 3 or 4 bulls. As far as I'm concerned Marty has put together something that nobody else could pull off.

Absolutely.  They put on a nice sale w/ a solid offering.  I was the volume buyer there a few years ago and follow the sale every year.  That said, I don't know that their inclusion of crossbred and mongrel bulls has been the make or break in any of them.  Personally, Id rather see them not offered as their inclusion gives the perception, at least to me, that SH's somehow can't stand on their own as a maternal outcross and that the 'angus' (or w/e?) influence is needed.  It's just not a practice I've ever seen from a premier Angus or Hereford seedstock producer and one hope to see less and less of from Shorthorn producers.

-///  In other words a blue roan from a purebred Shorthorn and a purebred Angus is not an f-1? And Ive seen every variation of what appears to be Hereford Shorthorn and black in the purebred registered Beefmasters Ive seen-and I havent even looked at the ones in Texas other than some at Ft Worth when we showed there.-kindly define stablized in terms of those cattle-are you saying that they are equal parts of each purebred "seedstock animal? I dont think so. O0

 

[mark tenenbaum]

To me, the question is....how could looks like a double muscle Shorthorn!
My idea of double muscle is clear, and many bulls saw on 2010 Congress and on the last Shorthorn Sires UK bull catalogue are double muscle!
But what is the limit for this!
Also, in my understanding of a double muscle bulls, all show direct North American ancestors....soo....

I wouldn't agree. The first picture is of probably one of the heavier muscled shorthorns from the recent Stirling sale. The other 3 pictures show double muscled Belgian Blue, Limousin and Charolais. These animals are quite normal in the UK. Do the shorthorns you recall compare to these?
I also think a lot of the North American bulls have been tested free of it.//// Actually-the bull pictured first exhibits some Maine influence to me -and although slightly round is not double muscled jmo.

 

[aj]

If you can go back on a beef individual and you have documented pedigrees going back on both sides.......in my eyes they are not mongrels. They may be f1 yes.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

If you can go back on a beef individual and you have documented pedigrees going back on both sides.......in my eyes they are not mongrels. They may be f1 yes.//// Now all I need to know is what stabilized cattle are? Maybe quaaludes or Valium in their feed?

 

[RyanChandler]

We need an 'intro to cattle' sticky so we can lay some groundwork as far as industry specific terminology is concerned.

Stabilized composite breeds are those such as beefmaster, brangus, santa Gertrudis, etc.  While derived from crossing more than one purebred lines, these stabilized composites are now considered to be purebreeds of their own as a result of their now STABILIZED GENOTYPE.  Example: ALL Brangus are 5/8 Angus 3/8 Brahman.  Note that this is much different than just a random combination of angus and Brahman blood.  It is a specific genetic makeup that was stabilized, i.e. FIXED, by breeding 5/8- 3/8 animals to each other for multiple generations.

Just because the pedigree or lineage of an animal has been documented has no bearing on an individual's purebred, crossbred, or mongrel status.

A purebred is an animal with a stabilized genotype: Angus, Hereford, Santa Gertrudis, etc. These pure lines are also known as seedstock.

A crossbred, or f1, is the result of crossing two stabilized purebreds of different breeds: Black baldie, Balancer, f1 Durham Red, etc

A mongrel, is an animal whose genetics are in disarray as a result of multiple (more than 1) outcrosses: Stabilizers (misnomer, I know), random multicross cow in your neighbor's pasture, etc

 

[HAB]

Breed - GALLOWAY (Solid Colored)

Have not been many changes in our breed, ever.  We still strive for the characteristics that separate us from the mistakes of the masses.

We didn't give up our breed identity to be "accepted" or for the association to make $$$$.

A description of a Galloway from the late 1800's still describes cattle being used today.

Still a true 100% Full Blood.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

(clapping)  Was waiting for you to chime in-well put-and the f-1s (if thats what they are lol) you post allays look good. Funny how most of the pure cattle are pretty frail looking-them Galloways aint. O0

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Thank you.
The UK bull showed isn't an example.
I'm refering to bulls like Thyphoon shape.

To me, the question is....how could looks like a double muscle Shorthorn!
My idea of double muscle is clear, and many bulls saw on 2010 Congress and on the last Shorthorn Sires UK bull catalogue are double muscle!
But what is the limit for this!
Also, in my understanding of a double muscle bulls, all show direct North American ancestors....soo....

I wouldn't agree. The first picture is of probably one of the heavier muscled shorthorns from the recent Stirling sale. The other 3 pictures show double muscled Belgian Blue, Limousin and Charolais. These animals are quite normal in the UK. Do the shorthorns you recall compare to these?
I also think a lot of the North American bulls have been tested free of it.

 

[aj]

I would argue that the Angus breed brings a lot of excellence to the beef industry. I have also heard that it was an impure breed with hundreds of strains of chi and holstein floating around in it. Maybe the chi influence is kinda disappearing with cattle becoming more moderate. Is the Angus breed stabilized.........if its not pure and it has a unorganized amounts if chi and holstein floating around in it? Are Angus cattle mongrels?

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I would argue that the Angus breed brings a lot of excellence to the beef industry. I have also heard that it was an impure breed with hundreds of strains of chi and holstein floating around in it. Maybe the chi influence is kinda disappearing with cattle becoming more moderate. Is the Angus breed stabilized.........if its not pure and it has a unorganized amounts if chi and holstein floating around in it? Are Angus cattle mongrels?/// As much as shorthorns simms etc. What about Herefords? Which is the purest British breed? O0

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Purity, a old and recurrent matter here in this forum.
Well, none breed is fully pure. But, at the moment when a herdbook was established, the things change!
After a herd book be closed, the breed is call "pure", and all infusions after, make it "cross" - at my view point.
We got some pure lines on all breeds - SHO, AA, HER....but they are very rare today.
Regarding purest british breed today, possible the Highland and Galloway in UK may be the expected answer. As Chillingham had Galloway and SHorthorn infusions on 1800's.
The CHI, Romagnola ou Limmi infusion on Aberdeen Angus not removed of the breed their genes, only we see a type change.....biotypes are easy to change, genetics inside not!
Sorry....all are mongrels!

 

[mark tenenbaum]

You got it-and this is mainly a steer and show cattle site anyhow. I think all the breeds have good commercially oriented cattle and until recently (Shorthorns-Red Demand, Hot Commodity, the Jazz lines) very few of which get a lot of show calves for better or worse.-AND THE WAY YOU PROVE ANY BREED IS HOW THEY IMPROVE OTHER CATTLE-EG MONGREL CREATION. Otherwise-you are going to have an even smaller market: and more or less be in your own very small club..Truth be known-a lot of the "purebred Shorthorns" especially the Gold line all the way back to Byland Goldwalk-are Maine-(Enticer) and Ayatollah (Milking Shorthorn). It seems to be a real good line-Look at what Waukaru, Loving, and to some degree Jungels, JT Ranch etc have bred for many years. O0

 

[shortyjock89]

The issue is, would you call most of those cattle good? Haven't seen much love for Waukaru in the last few years.

 

[Okotoks]

The issue is, would you call most of those cattle good? Haven't seen much love for Waukaru in the last few years.

I don't think Waukaru is focused on the show ring as much as the commercial market. The influence of Waukaru bloodlines in Australia is pretty big. We used a yearling bull last year with a Waukaru dam and his sire's dam also was by a Waukaru sire. The bull was really structurally sound with some great EPD's. We will see how he works when the calves start arriving in the next few days!

 

[Duncraggan]

Great figures on this bull there Okotoks, best is that he is 100% Shorthorn! The $CEZ, $BMI and $F spread is superb.
Post some pictures of the calves please.