Clones and breeding.......

[Limiman12]

This topic has amused , intrigued and bewildered me for a while now.......  Full disclosure have not bred with clones myself, just doing some ai ing this year to get mama cows for club calves for my kids when they get old enough in a few years.

So Heat Wave is 2-300 per straw when you can find it.    HW 2 is 100 or so, and subsequent clones after him are less........  The reason being that "clones don't breed exactly true".  Or something similar.

I am no idiot when it comes to genetics.  I understand the minute difference genetically in clones due to mitochondrial DNA,  I also understand the idea of epigenetics, that the animals environment will somewhat alter what genes get expressed to what degree. Yadda  yadda

But isn't meiosis which creates the sperm, only nuclear DNA,  And isn't it nuclear DNA that is extracted and used to create the clone?

In the field trial and hunt test world of labrador retrievers that I have been In for several years now there is a dog named lean Mac.  A great dog that has thrown many great pups.  The heat wave of the retriever world.  To start with he got used A LOT.  Mostly with top level females because of the stud fee, not gonna spend the increased stud fee on a POS female.  So he got bred to lots of good dogs, no coincidence, he threw lots of good pups,    More people sought him out, stud fee went up,  now he was only getting bred to great females, so  pups were more expensive only going to serious homes, more likely to have every chance to succeed......  No that he is dead and limited semen left, only elite females get him, and can name the price for the pups and they only go to SERIOUS people.    So is lean Mac really that much better of stud then his sons or is it the other factors?

My theory is the same is true for heat wave vs clones (and other cloned bulls).  Perhaps the reason the clones "don't breed true" is because they are not being bred to the same level of females.    If I am going to shell out. 2-300 for a straw of semen, it is going to be for a flush quality cow.  And because of that the are going to be differences on the cow side, plus there are going to be a few more calves per breeding to choose from so if 1-2 doesn't turn out as well not as big of deal cause. There are the one or two rock stars in the flush that people talk about.    On the flip side, a thirty dollars straw of semen forma clone might get put in a more ordinary cow, and throw a nice calf, the type that made heat waves  reputation to start with, but not the 50 k calf that people are seeing out of the flushes to the original that go to people that are going to do everything possible to make sure the calf works out.

So my question is do clones really not breed true, which from the biology side I see as improbable, or is it a case of higher priced semen going into higher quality cows and the resulting calves going to deeper pocketed homes?

 

[Bradenh]

its all about the cows they are put on, they are all the same

heatwave and #1 throw better calves, because they are bred to better cows... breed heatwave 9000000 to the same female, and get the same calf  ;D crazy how that works

breed original heatwave to crappy ole brahman cow, and get crappy ole brahman calf. just as his clone would throw. Just that people dont breed original to that female, because its financially ignorant

 

[Limiman12]

Would be interesting to flush a cow to heat wave, store the eggs, flush same cow to a clone put all the eggs in to a similar group of recipes nd see if people can sort em out....

 

[vet tech]

It's all about marketing if you ask me. The only difference I see is semen quality on some clones. However, some people will swear by the fact that clones are better or worse than the original. I think that's crazy.

 

[NHR]

But isn't meiosis which creates the sperm, only nuclear DNA,   And isn't it nuclear DNA that is extracted and used to create the clone?

Yes, nuclear cell is used to create the clone. When a clone is DNA tested it will test exact match to original.

 

[NHR]

http://www.bovance.com/

 

[NHR]

and another

http://www.viagen.com/

 

[Limiman12]

If semen quality is an issue that could justify the difference, but semen quality on an old or over collected bull can fade as well....

Old DNA is old DNA,  Wonder if there are people stores DNA on young sires inches they decode to  clone them later to be cloning younger dne.  As animals age there is a tail and a cap on each strand of DNA that get shorter with replication,  younger then animal the long the tail.  Cloning young DNA could in theory mitigate that problem and improve semen quality of the clone.

 

[vet tech]

^ very true. I have more semen issues with clones than originals,.

 

[bcosu]

Would be interesting to flush a cow to heat wave, store the eggs, flush same cow to a clone put all the eggs in to a similar group of recipes nd see if people can sort em out....

I think this is the greatest argument of all. how many full sibs are just as good as each other? why does a clone get judged if their calf isn't as good as the original? it's hard to get those genetics to line up right twice. that's when you know you have something special when they do.

 

[RidinHeifer]

Oh lordy...how I miss our old lean mac!  He was given as a tip to my dad when he was guiding a hunt for a nice older couple when he was still doing that.  He was flown from Maine to st Louis.  That guy was old, but he was a good dog while we had him.  He had gotten his Canadian and American supreme retriever(whatever the highest deal is, it has been a while since we did that) for both field trials and hunt tests.  Ur had the whole list of letters after his name.  Ended up getting renal failure, and I did fluids and all the drugs for 3 years and kept him alive and happy as ever.  Poor guy finally died at 13 after 3 years of treatments, but he knew when it was time to get his mere and fluids...he'd walk n the house right to his spot by the iv bag and wait.    Our honest abe was just as good! He was a great hunting dog and family dog.  The honest abe was much prettier though, lol.  Sorry you got me thinking about them two!...its all good though, I hadn't in a while

I know when they first started cloning horses the issue came up that they wouldn't ever be performance horses like the originals because of the health weakness of being a clone(don't remember all the details its been awhile)...so I'd say you could expect a lower performance in sperm production and quality.  why aren't these ppl cloning these great bulls and then cutting the calves to be sold as show steers...or even cloning these hard core show steers?  I realize cloning is very expensive, but people would pay big time for a show calf that had the identical genetics that had already won a major? Has anyone cloned any big time donors yet?

 

[bart]

2xNAFC 2xCNAFC FC CFC Ebonstar Lean Mac
He was a great dog I watched him run in the nationals in about 94 95 or so I think that was the year farmer won it with vinewoods takes a lickin?. He could mark in the dark!! Loved watching him run didnt realize we had retriever folks on this sight.

 

[KSUwildcat2009]

I think you've hit the nailed on the head with the semen price, quality of cows, etc.  Another thing to probably add to that list is that we see difference in calves of original Heatwave and Heatwave 1208945 because the type of cows we keep, breed and run are different than they were 10 years ago.  I'm looking at a picture of a heifer that sits on my desk from 10 years ago who was one of the deepest heifers shown that year and now she just fits in with the crowd.

Would be interesting to flush a cow to heat wave, store the eggs, flush same cow to a clone put all the eggs in to a similar group of recipes nd see if people can sort em out....

I think this is the greatest argument of all. how many full sibs are just as good as each other? why does a clone get judged if their calf isn't as good as the original? it's hard to get those genetics to line up right twice. that's when you know you have something special when they do.

Another excellent point! 

 

[twistedhshowstock]

I think the other thing to consider is these bulls dont even breed true to themselves.  I am not trying to get into the purebred vs composite argument, I dont play sides and use both purebreds and composites.  But when you have conglomorates of that many different breeds there is no true heterosis so its a shot in the dark, but shots in the dark have won a LOT of shows over the years. 
A lot of people say the clones dont breed as true because you look at sales and shows etc etc and see all these great ones out of the original and maybe a few out of the first one or 2 clones.  But all those stats are deceiving.  Lets take Heatwave and Monopoly, you only ever really here about the good ones and how many they are, so people assume that everything they throw is good.  But lets be real there are a LOT of calves out of those bulls that go to the sale barn each year.  All these great ones you hear about out of them are actually most likely a very small percent of the calves born out of those bulls each yr because they are bred to SO many cows each yr.  So in all actuallity these bulls are not super consistent to begin with, they just get used enough for there to be enough good ones hit the ground to make it seem like they are. 
Another reason is marketing, they are gonna talk the originals up big time so that they can sell that high dollar semen.
Another reason you cant really judge the clones against the originals in the consistancy department.  For 90% of breeders, jocks, whatevers out there, if they have a calf that is out of Monopoly # 29899734323 and they put an ad, or picture, or consign it to a sale guess what all that is going to say it is out of??? Monopoly!! Maybe Monopoly 2 these days since Lautner is really pushing him heavy.  But they are going to just say Monopoly and their thinking in doing that isnt off base.  The genes they got from Monopoly 3975938 are the exact same as the genest they would have gotten from Monopoly himself, so who really cares if they say its out of Monopoly or Monopoly 374957497.

On another topic from the original message.  I dont know if you were considering Heatwave for making the females you were talking about or not.  But if your main goal this year is to produce cows for the herd, I would probably consider something other than  Heatwave.  Now I am not one of those that believes that Heatwave daughters are useless, but at the same time I think that there are a lot better bulls to produce females with.

 

[GONEWEST]

This topic has amused , intrigued and bewildered me for a while now.......  Full disclosure have not bred with clones myself, just doing some ai ing this year to get mama cows for club calves for my kids when they get old enough in a few years.

So Heat Wave is 2-300 per straw when you can find it.    HW 2 is 100 or so, and subsequent clones after him are less........   The reason being that "clones don't breed exactly true".  Or something similar.

I am no idiot when it comes to genetics.  I understand the minute difference genetically in clones due to mitochondrial DNA,   I also understand the idea of epigenetics, that the animals environment will somewhat alter what genes get expressed to what degree. Yadda  yadda

But isn't meiosis which creates the sperm, only nuclear DNA,   And isn't it nuclear DNA that is extracted and used to create the clone?

In the field trial and hunt test world of labrador retrievers that I have been In for several years now there is a dog named lean Mac.  A great dog that has thrown many great pups.  The heat wave of the retriever world.   To start with he got used A LOT.  Mostly with top level females because of the stud fee, not gonna spend the increased stud fee on a POS female.   So he got bred to lots of good dogs, no coincidence, he threw lots of good pups,    More people sought him out, stud fee went up,  now he was only getting bred to great females, so  pups were more expensive only going to serious homes, more likely to have every chance to succeed......   No that he is dead and limited semen left, only elite females get him, and can name the price for the pups and they only go to SERIOUS people.    So is lean Mac really that much better of stud then his sons or is it the other factors?

My theory is the same is true for heat wave vs clones (and other cloned bulls).  Perhaps the reason the clones "don't breed true" is because they are not being bred to the same level of females.    If I am going to shell out. 2-300 for a straw of semen, it is going to be for a flush quality cow.   And because of that the are going to be differences on the cow side, plus there are going to be a few more calves per breeding to choose from so if 1-2 doesn't turn out as well not as big of deal cause. There are the one or two rock stars in the flush that people talk about.     On the flip side, a thirty dollars straw of semen forma clone might get put in a more ordinary cow, and throw a nice calf, the type that made heat waves  reputation to start with, but not the 50 k calf that people are seeing out of the flushes to the original that go to people that are going to do everything possible to make sure the calf works out.

So my question is do clones really not breed true, which from the biology side I see as improbable, or is it a case of higher priced semen going into higher quality cows and the resulting calves going to deeper pocketed homes?

You have a really big hole in your theory/analogy. "Mac" the dog was bred to superior females from the get go. Because he had a high stud fee from the beginning, he was always mated only to good females, then his stud fee got higher, the quality of females got better and thus  did the puppies. But that's not the case with Heat Wave. Heat Wave was $25 a unit FOR YEARS. He was bred to everything from great ones to sale barn cows. The reason his semen went up was a) he quit producing, but b) because be produced more of what was desired than other $25 bulls did. At first he was used on a broad sample of cows, much like his lower priced clones now. Very different from Mac being bred only to good females to begin with.  And he out produced other bulls, thats why there are so many clones, to keep up with semen demand. So the theory about he is good because his semen is expensive and he only gets bred to good cows is not sound. It would be sound for those bulls that are syndicated and used on a much more controlled, smaller sample of cows. But not on Heat Wave.

Heat Wave semen is $300 because some one will pay that much for it, I have no idea why. You could give me all the anecdotal evidence and stories of this "original" Heat Wave calf being better than that Heat Wave clone. But over a large enough sample, the results of breeding the original and the clone would be the same. Period. The end.

 

[Limiman12]

Both were bred a ton.  Yes Mac probably got bred to fewer "sale barn" type then heatwave did because of the economics of aiming the species..  I collected my dog and the vet was very pleased with getting seven breeding s worth of semen.  How many breeding per collection from a bull.    As said before, both had lots of opportunities relatively.  Lean Mac sired  a couple thousand pups.  A low percentage actually made fc, but those that did generated more demand and the quality of female increased.  Yes heatwave sired way more calves from lesser cows, but becauseofthat he was bound to throw some good ones out of lesser quality cows, but how many ended up at the salebarn themselves.....
My theory is that heatwave now gets bred to better cows then the clones.

And no, not going to use heatwave to make mama cows.  Dad won't let me use carriers on his herd until we are thinking terminal.  But he did buy a couple of tanks for crossbred cows from a guy running out of pasture that I might put a clone of heatwave or monopoly in next spring..... 

 

[Limiman12]

Btw gone west, you say I have a big whole in my theory/analogy, but you the agreed with it.  No noticeable difference over a large sample of similar cows.  Both sired a hue sample choose from to throw the great ones that made their name.    ,

 

[Limiman12]

And was lean Mac high compared to other fcs or nfc's?  I don't know.  My point was that as he got more established it went up, and Now is impossible to get unless you have an elite female and connections.  So the percentage of successful breeding has increased as it went from good females to great to elite.....

Splitting hairs over something not central to the point I was trying to make.    Clones and originals should breed the same if given thesameopportunity.

 

[ZNT]

"Mac" the dog was bred to superior females from the get go. Because he had a high stud fee from the beginning, he was always mated only to good females, then his stud fee got higher, the quality of females got better and thus  did the puppies.

This sounds like the same philosophy Hartman has used for years.  Price the semen or semen packages very high, and naturally anyone using these bulls will only use them on their very best cows, thus making the bull seem better than he is.  Wasn't it Hotline that he set the A.I. certificate at $1000?  Of course you are only going to see good registered heifers out of a bull that costs over a $1000 to register the calf.

 

[GONEWEST]

Sorry I mispoke.  And I appreciate you taking the time to make THREE posts to set me straight. It wasn't the theory that clones and originals breed alike that was wrong, it was the analogy with the dog that was WAY off.  

YOU said "To start with he got used A LOT.  Mostly with top level females because of the stud fee, not gonna spend the increased stud fee on a POS female.   So he got bred to lots of good dogs, no coincidence, he threw lots of good pups,    More people sought him out, stud fee went up,  now he was only getting bred to great females, so  pups were more expensive only going to serious homes, more likely to have every chance to succeed......   No that he is dead and limited semen left, only elite females get him, and can name the price for the pups and they only go to SERIOUS people.    So is lean Mac really that much better of stud then his sons or is it the other factors?

That is no where near the way Heatwave got his start. Not even on the same planet. He WAS bred to every "POS" (your term) cow in the country. This alone helped him have a greater chance at success than other bulls because as anyone else who has bred him  over the years  or saw more than the "Heatwave" steers at the traders place knows, he's no more consistent than any other good clubby bred bull. It's just that the good ones are good. What drives the price up on the original is only that someone will believe that original semen produces better and some one will believe one sired by the "original" will do better. For a while every steer a trader owned was a "Heatwave" because that's what people wanted to buy. There is really no way to know actually how good he is.

There are plenty of bulls that are introduced to the industry just like the dog was. They get bred only to good cows because of the cost to buy semen. Heatwave ain't one of them.