clones just hype...

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GONEWEST

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Mar 24, 2008
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GEORGIA
[/quote]So your saying that we should raise terrible cows and have more dead cows and calfs than live just to maybe get one good one. Let alone if he cant keep up so your telling me that there using a clone and posting it as HW.  well what if the clones sucks? Just because HW throughs good STEERS doesnt meen that they will have anything better than market.
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Jallen, I didn't say you should do anything. What I did was give you the simple reason why he has been cloned so much. It's obvious just from the fact that so many Heatwaves exist, that he works for others much better than he does for you. Ever here of Lautner cloning Moody Blues or say.....We Got Him??? Although I am sure they have had a few good calves, there wasn't so much demand for the semen that they needed two of them. The reasons that clones are produced of any specific animal is purely economic. If that is a concept that is too difficult to grasp, look at it like this, the owners of the bulls in question make MILLIONS of dollars selling semen on them. A million dollar bills stacked on top of one another is about 35 stories high. Maybe that gives you a picture of why these bulls have been cloned. They don't care that Heatweave offspring won't work for the commercial cow man in the sand dunes, they DON'T CARE. It would be like Toyota caring that you got your Corolla stuck in the mud hole out on the back 40. The Corolla wasn't developed for the back 40. It's your fault you put it there.


But the main point of my post was to point out that there is no need to discuss what someone else should do, what's "best."  We can run a cow calf unit per acre. The cows that work here commercially are not the best for the  beloved sand dunes. Doesn't mean I should  have the same kind of cows they do there.  And I don't know enough about Chambero's environment, labor, facilities, goals, aspirations, or resources to form an opinion of what is best for him. He will get along just fine without me spouting off about what is best for him. So many of these posts serve absolutely no purpose, other than to bash someone else's ideas or program. Like yours, for instance.

But if I were to suggest that you do anything, first I would suggest that you ask your parents to put you in a school where they teach correct spelling of such easy words as "throw" and "mean." Not to mention the plural form of the word "calf." Then after you get Spelling and English down a little better you could move on to science where you would learn that when viewed over a large enough sample, indeed the result of breeding the clones would appear to be statistically very near exact.

In the mean time, when you post something, remember to try to give your opinion in such a way as not to appear to tell someone that what they do is stupid. It serves absolutely no good purpose other than to cause ill feelings and make you appear jealous of someone else's success. If you don't believe that just read the paragraph above, I didn't mean it, just wrote it to prove a point.

 

VJ

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Feb 28, 2009
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Iowa
Merging the commercial cattle business and the show cattle business is very similar to the UPS commercials wanting Dale Jarrett to drive the "the big brown truck".  You don't use a Corolla to win Talledaga and you don't fill your feedlot with show cattle. Why is it so hard to grasp that concept?
I have a friend who had half dozen Texas Hold 'Em's last year that were all over 100 lbs. His Wave on Waves were all 80 - 90 lbs. That proves not every HW or HW clone is a monster. I've never used HW or a clone but I'm thinking of breeding my 1700 lbs Fear This cow to Heat Wave just so I can get on here next year and bitch about him being a cow killer. Oh wait... huge bw sire + huge bw sire = huge bw calf! On second thought maybe I'll stick with what I've been doing so I don't have problems. What a neat idea. Sorry for the sarchasim but aren't most of our show cattle problems self-inflicted?
 

DLD

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sw Oklahoma
Great thread - gotta love it...

I try really hard not to slam what works for someone else.  There are a whole lot of cattle out there in different segments of the beef industry that I don't like - In fact I dislike some of them so much that there are undoubtably a whole lot of very, very valuable bulls out there that if one of my better cows was standing in the chute ready to AI and you handed me a thawed straw of semen on them, I'd shoot it out on the ground before I'd put in my cow.  That doesn't mean I think the people who bred and use him are stupid or that I think the bull's a worthless piece of crap, it just means that he doesn't fit in with what I'm trying to produce. That doesn't mean that what I'm doing is wrong or what you're doing is wrong, it just means they're different.

As far as clones go, here's my thoughts -  I sell semen on cloned bulls, I use cloned bulls.  Because it's what the marketplace demands.  Not to say that cloning doesn't have it's place, but I really have to believe that if we didn't have clones to directly replace and/or increase supply of these same very popular bulls, we could very well be better off because we'd be sampling a much broader genetic base if they weren't available. In the long term, I wonder if we might not be moving away from alot of the issues we're currently dealing with alot faster if we didn't have our repeat button stuck on...
 

Steered

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Spring Hill, Ks
I was not singleing out Heatwave in this thread.  Yes I did reference him in questioning the need for 11 clones of an animal.  If there really is a need for 11 clones to keep up with demand then great for Lautner.  But I question that kind of demand really exists. ( I don't know if there is any way to tell how much of any bull is actually sold)  For example Meyer 734 would be 20 years old this year hand there is still semen available (and I do acknowledge that it is $650).  I cannot find how old Who Made Who is but there is still a steady supply of semen on him at @ $25.  When Full Flush was cloned the owners thought that there was a need as he was a very popular bull.  How many of you are breedeing for that phenotype calf now?  My point of the original thread is that the number of clones (meaning number of clones of different bulls, not how many clones of the same bull) out there has more to do with a program trying to "keep up with the Jones' " more than really needing that animal cloned.  There have been clones of club calf type bull/cows, clones of purebred type bulls/cows.  This was not a purebred/club calf thing in my mind.  I personally was looking at it as a marketing/ego type thing.
 

Steered

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Spring Hill, Ks
DLD said:
Great thread - gotta love it...

I try really hard not to slam what works for someone else.  There are a whole lot of cattle out there in different segments of the beef industry that I don't like - In fact I dislike some of them so much that there are undoubtably a whole lot of very, very valuable bulls out there that if one of my better cows was standing in the chute ready to AI and you handed me a thawed straw of semen on them, I'd shoot it out on the ground before I'd put in my cow.  That doesn't mean I think the people who bred and use him are stupid or that I think the bull's a worthless piece of crap, it just means that he doesn't fit in with what I'm trying to produce. That doesn't mean that what I'm doing is wrong or what you're doing is wrong, it just means they're different.

As far as clones go, here's my thoughts -  I sell semen on cloned bulls, I use cloned bulls.  Because it's what the marketplace demands.  Not to say that cloning doesn't have it's place, but I really have to believe that if we didn't have clones to directly replace and/or increase supply of these same very popular bulls, we could very well better off because we'd be sampling a much broader genetic base if they weren't available. In the long term, I wonder if we might not be moving away from alot of the issues we're currently dealing with alot faster if we didn't have our repeat button stuck on...

Great post... I really love that last couple of sentences!
 

simtal

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Feb 3, 2008
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Champaign, IL
Using heat wave is no different than when people put big chi bulls on small angus cows

and in both instances, the calves sold well
 

MooMooLover

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Mar 5, 2009
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Ohio
This is our first calf heatwave heifer with an Ali daughter. Had the calf by herself. Wasn't a great milker for the first 3 days or so though. After that she was great. Great mom.
 

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Dusty

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Feb 13, 2008
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I know knabe has brought this up before, but how long before there are actually clones of steers being shown as steers?  With the top end steers bringing 30-40k, it would be cheaper to just clone a good steer instead of trying to buy one....
 

Throttle

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Apr 24, 2008
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It's already been done. Secondhand story I got was that a big trader had a standing order for 3 head at $100K. He cloned the Dillon Evans steer that was either Grand or Res at NAILE or KC a few years ago (I forget which) and sent the live results to this family. He said is was cheaper than going out and finding one like that
 

chambero

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Texas
Starting last year, most big steer sales explicitly stated the sellers retained 100% cloning rights - you do not have the right to clone a steer you buy. 
 

knabe

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Hollister, CA
hence, the demand for cloned bulls.

i wonder if there will someday be a contract that offspring from a cloned bull have the same type of limitation.

at that point, there may be some effort to look elsewhere for genetics.

the musical chair game will be losing chairs faster and faster.
 

Dusty

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chambero said:
Starting last year, most big steer sales explicitly stated the sellers retained 100% cloning rights - you do not have the right to clone a steer you buy.   

I would like to see the lawsuit over that one.  I don't think a seller can really retain all the genetic rights to an animal that is being sold.  Sure they can retain the right to have access to the DNA, but not the exclusive right to the DNA.  The only reason they get away with it with seed beans is that there is actually technology in the seed.  There is no technology in a calf.  You can't patent your steer, or bull or cow either.

I can't wait to see what happens when the champion steer at one of these big shows has a hole missing from his ear sometime after the show.  What I'm saying is what's gonna happen when someone steals the DNA to a calf???
 
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