Clubby bulls on plain jane or even not so good cows.

[Davidsonranch]

So my friend as a rancher has a lot of commercial, "range cows" that spend most of their life on grazing permits in the desert scrounging through this drought and then surviving tough high desert winters. They are "survivors" and not "show cows".  He just wants to get decent 4-H steers for his kids.  Obviously he would like to say he have show stock from years of detailed breeding, but he really dosent although his kids are working on it through breeding projects, etc.  Has anyone got some wing dingers, or surprise calves by breeding some of todays top clubby bulls to plain jane or even not so pretty cows?  Any pics?  My friend thought about pulling 10 or so head of the better mamas / milkers and wanted my help throwing some clubby semen in them.  Most are Angus / Hereford crosses or Sim / Angus crosses. Seems like most of his cows are a little leggier, and narrow. Thanks

 

[CAB]

  The first time that you cross with a clubbie bull will be the time that you'll notice the most change! After that it seems to be more of a gradual change or a suttle change. When the cows get very, very good be careful you don't move yourself backwards.

 

[chambero]

You need to be breeding a lot more than 10 to give yourself a decent statistical chance of getting a good steer.  Your odds would be a lot better with 50.

 

[whitecow]

You need to be breeding a lot more than 10 to give yourself a decent statistical chance of getting a good steer.  Your odds would be a lot better with 50.

True. Its also true that the more plain/narrow/leggy cows that you breed to clubby bulls the more dead cows/calves you will have.

 

[LLBUX]

Yup-
Better consider calving ease bulls

 

[Gargan]

for a bull suggestion, i suggest walks alone. He's made his mark in the industry powering up plain made cows with some depth of body.. However , i do suggest using him on more docile cows.

 

[Go Green]

This is all so very confusing, i could swear there was just a thread about not keeping clubby heifers to make mommas with. So if you dont want to breed clubby to plain mommas and you dont want to keep clubby heifers how do you get a cow that will produce nice club calves? :-\

 

[RyanChandler]

This is all so very confusing, i could swear there was just a thread about not keeping clubby heifers to make mommas with. So if you dont want to breed clubby to plain mommas and you dont want to keep clubby heifers how do you get a cow that will produce nice club calves? :-\

Breeding clubby to plain is fine as long as you're not trying to cross extremes.  Ie don't breed bulls known for routinely throwing 130+lb calves to 1000lb plain made cows.

Those clubby cows that 'produce' nice calves aren't the same cows that 'raise' nice calves. 

 

[cowboy_nyk]

[/quote]
Those clubby cows that 'produce' nice calves aren't the same cows that 'raise' nice calves.
[/quote]

So much truth in so few words!

 

[Davidsonranch]

Thanks for the comments.  I'm not worried about using a heifer safe bull.  Most of the cows are 5-10 years of age.  We understand the birthing issues with calving little "blocks".
I was just hoping someone had more pics of the results they got and how the breeding made you say, "wow that calf came out of that cow" kind of senerio.

I did it a couple years ago on a similar cow.  Bred her to Walks Alone and got a nice little heifer.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I dont think youll get it done in one generation-Id breed them to something like :Excel 80,Young Money,Safe and Sound, Jose, Problem Solved, Bodybuilder,or one of the Yardley maine deals. JMO-if they are Maine maternal x semi clubby but maternal-those hiefers will produce nice club calves. Because :you will have made some improvements in body definition , structure,and showy looks (all of these are showy-and there are others) Without losing the ability to raise a calf,in imperfect conditions:and without losing the scale needed to produce NON PUDS.And also having the shape and or build to safely have a thick blocky calf-obviously not the first time out. O0

 

[Chap]

it sounds to me like this guy just wants some respectable calves for his kids to show. Muscle and look would be priority.  if he wants to raise FT Worth champs he is probably peeing in the wind.  if 1st scenario is correct.  pick the freak and breed on.  i would venture to guess that 80% of the clubby bulls displayed in denver every year would be more successful (read as meeting expectations) on the type of cows you describe than they will be on Really good looking cows that have some clubby blood in them already.  You really shouldn't have to worry about "too Much" when breeding the type of cows you describe.  The great thing about his situation is all clubby genetics are on the table.  the list is incredibly long when you have these options.  pick a bull that catches your eye, go out on a limb, breeding club calves is like a box of chocolates.  you never know what you're gonna get.

 

[crystalcreek]

Is using the plain Jane cows as recips even an option?  There's embryo sales daily this time of year, some fantastic choices available out there for reasonable prices. 

Sample four different sets of three embryos, set up your 12 best recip candidates (who is the most docile, has good size and pelvic capacity, and milks the best in the herd?), and put them all in at the same time.  Keep best calves for the kids and have a couple to sell on line to cover the expenses of implanting ET's.  Prices calves are bringing these days, could even sell them at the local sale barn and recoup costs for the kids' calves with your extras.  Might get a good heifer that the kids could raise their own cow-calf pair to show, too, that way.....  Success for frozens is usually around 60% or greater, depending on many factors....

Just a thought....

 

[Davidsonranch]

Chap I think you are spot on. 

I also like the embryo idea except we are probably 200+ miles from a technician or someone who can do it.  I guess we would have to explore costs.

I have a good friend who has produced my neighboring county's 4-H and FFA champs the last several years in a row.  He is the one that got me thinking.  He has had a ton of success using the bull Alias.  But his trick is to use him on his "less desirable cows".  They turn out awesome, but he said the minute he breeds him to his best cows, the calves have issues.

Thanks for all the comments everyone. 

 

[chambero]

Bulls from Alias's "generation" have much more structural trouble than the younger generation.  In my opinion Monopoly is hard to beat if you want good haired calves.  I like Unstoppable as well.  Itallian Stallion looks to be the real deal also.  Walks Alone/BIMs could have some real attitudes in your scenario where the mommas might be kind of wild and not messed with much until weaning.

If you want colored calves with hair, I'd look hard at Texas Tornado and Gold Rush.  Those two can give ugly cows the look and are pretty consistent in how they breed and your cows should give them enough growth.

 

[ROMAX]

Yrs ago lautner had on his blog a list of bulls for plainer made cows,I think it also showed a sale barn cow raised a champion by Monopoly.

 

[OH Breeder]

Economically, Crystal Creek has a great idea. If you want a few good calves, invest in some good eggs and use good momma's to raise embryo calves. That is the quickest way to change your herd.