COMMANDER IN CHIEF

[oakview]

The more things change, the more things stay the same.  All the noteworthy animals in this thread are noteworthy because of their show records, either as an individual or as a parent.  Nothing has changed in 100 years.  The praised herds are praised due to their show accomplishments.

Several of my herd bulls trace back to King Collynie, Jr. from the 30's.  I absolutely enjoy studying the old cattle magazines.  I keep some copies from the 30's and 50's close at hand.  It is amazing at the type change from the 30's to the 50's.  Some of the cattle in the 30's photos are small framed and early maturing, but the cattle in the 1951 year end Shorthorn World I look through are almost sickeningly small.  The straw is heaped to the belly in almost every picture to make them look even shorter legged.  Almost everybody is using a Scotch type, imported bull to get them even smaller.  The show photos are retouched to show more lower rear quarter and a bushy tail.  There almost seems to be a kind of romanticism about these cattle.  Some of us more "experienced" breeders lived through this stuff.  I don't know of too many that want to go back.  I had my fill of 350 pound weaned calves, udders that drug on the ground, steers that finished at 850 pounds.  They did have some fleshing ability, but that's about the only positive trait I can remember.  And, of course, leading the way through all this was the glorious Angus breed.  They were the smallest, blockiest, most popular cattle when I was starting 4-H, so we all had to emulate them.  I have a catalog somewhere of the Shadow Isle Angus dispersion from the early 50's.  Prince Eric of Sunbeam was their famous herd bull.  He was hardly a belt buckle bull to a short man.  Of course, then we went to the giraffes of the 80's when we couldn't get them tall enough.  The revered Angus again showed the way with their ton-plus junior yearling females in Denver.  I do enjoy history and the study of it, I'm just not sure I want to go back there. 

 

[shorthorngeek]

Oakwood Commander, which preceded Commander-in-Chief by a few years, was junior champion bull at the International in 1939 and grand champion at the International the following year (1940).

 

[librarian]

When in doubt, blame WWII.
Thank you for being so generous with information and your time.

 

[Okotoks]

The more things change, the more things stay the same.  All the noteworthy animals in this thread are noteworthy because of their show records, either as an individual or as a parent.  Nothing has changed in 100 years.  The praised herds are praised due to their show accomplishments.

Several of my herd bulls trace back to King Collynie, Jr. from the 30's.  I absolutely enjoy studying the old cattle magazines.  I keep some copies from the 30's and 50's close at hand.  It is amazing at the type change from the 30's to the 50's.  Some of the cattle in the 30's photos are small framed and early maturing, but the cattle in the 1951 year end Shorthorn World I look through are almost sickeningly small.  The straw is heaped to the belly in almost every picture to make them look even shorter legged.  Almost everybody is using a Scotch type, imported bull to get them even smaller.  The show photos are retouched to show more lower rear quarter and a bushy tail.  There almost seems to be a kind of romanticism about these cattle.  Some of us more "experienced" breeders lived through this stuff. I don't know of too many that want to go back.  I had my fill of 350 pound weaned calves, udders that drug on the ground, steers that finished at 850 pounds.  They did have some fleshing ability, but that's about the only positive trait I can remember.  And, of course, leading the way through all this was the glorious Angus breed.  They were the smallest, blockiest, most popular cattle when I was starting 4-H, so we all had to emulate them. I have a catalog somewhere of the Shadow Isle Angus dispersion from the early 50's.  Prince Eric of Sunbeam was their famous herd bull.  He was hardly a belt buckle bull to a short man.  Of course, then we went to the giraffes of the 80's when we couldn't get them tall enough.  The revered Angus again showed the way with their ton-plus junior yearling females in Denver.  I do enjoy history and the study of it, I'm just not sure I want to go back there.

I agree with Oakview on this! JIT mentions the same thing that we need to be careful what we use from the past and why. I was looking through a dog eared copy of the 1967 Herd Reference Shorthorn World. I didn't find what I was looking for but 2 pages apart are a couple of ads that mention mature weights of bulls. The first is for a white bull in Aberdeen Scotland , Marden Best. It says "this massive beautiful-headed, strong-boned bull weighs nearly 1600 pounds in working condition."  : (page 157) On page 161 is an ad for Horseshoe Creek. Their herd sire, Louada Clachan ,a scotch bred bull, the caption "Louada Clachan stays right at 2,200 pounds in pasture flesh"
Going through this magazine there are a lot of little bulls but even in 1967 there were Scotch bred bulls that were significantly bigger. I would say way too much attention was paid to good heads, horn type, short legs and very little attention to performance or practical beef animals.
Interesting that back in 1967 the Shorthorn World was published on the 1st and 15th of each month and the herd bull edition was 436 pages. Sale results were 2 to 3 weeks after each sale!

 

[oakview]

My memory of Prince Eric of Sunbeam brought about a web search.  There are pictures of him, or course, on the net.  I did not know until just now that he was named "Bull of the Century" and his tombstone was moved to the Angus headquarters in St. Joseph's, Missouri.  The promotion says to thank Prince Eric every time you enjoy a good Angus steak.  I also found a photo of an Angus bull, no name, but identified as a Triple Bred Eileenmere from the early 50's.  There's a measuring stick beside him.  At best he stands 41-42 inches tall AT MATURITY.  Interestingly enough, his nickname is "Short Snorter."  Dr. Harlan Ritchie states that, unfortunately, he was the forerunner of the dwarfs to come.  Somebody needs to superimpose his photo alongside Friggio.  To illustrate the difference in the frame sizes of cattle, there's a shot of Willie Shoemaker beside Wilt Chamberlain.  Sometimes I think of my grandfather making the transition from farming with horses to tractors.  When he retired, his biggest tractor was a Farmall H.  Imagine what he would think of the tractors of today.  It's fun to recall the changes in cattle types just in the 50+ years I've been raising Shorthorns.  Comforting to know that in 50 years they'll think we were pretty stupid, too. 

 

[librarian]

I was just reading this about Sni-A-Bar Silver Plate being sold at 10 years, 1695 lbs. that was 1941.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003033069;view=2up;seq=18;skin=mobile

I think Prince Eric of Sunbeam also carried a dwarf gene...not sure on that.
......I was mistaken. Black Prince of Sunbeam carried the dwarf gene.

 

[r.n.reed]

The more things change, the more things stay the same.  All the noteworthy animals in this thread are noteworthy because of their show records, either as an individual or as a parent.  Nothing has changed in 100 years.  The praised herds are praised due to their show accomplishments.


With the exception of Collynie Sensation Oakview, I agree with you.And so our relevancy in general to the commercial beef industry has remained the same as well.

 

[beebe]

Also the exception of the Haumont herd and Dover Sindelars herd.  I think they have earned their spot without the showring.  You are right the showring has probably been an impediment to shorthorns.

 

[justintime]

I agree with Oakview on this! JIT mentions the same thing that we need to be careful what we use from the past and why. I was looking through a dog eared copy of the 1967 Herd Reference Shorthorn World. I didn't find what I was looking for but 2 pages apart are a couple of ads that mention mature weights of bulls. The first is for a white bull in Aberdeen Scotland , Marden Best. It says "this massive beautiful-headed, strong-boned bull weighs nearly 1600 pounds in working condition."  : (page 157) On page 161 is an ad for Horseshoe Creek. Their herd sire, Louada Clachan ,a scotch bred bull, the caption "Louada Clachan stays right at 2,200 pounds in pasture flesh"
Going through this magazine there are a lot of little bulls but even in 1967 there were Scotch bred bulls that were significantly bigger. I would say way too much attention was paid to good heads, horn type, short legs and very little attention to performance or practical beef animals.
Interesting that back in 1967 the Shorthorn World was published on the 1st and 15th of each month and the herd bull edition was 436 pages. Sale results were 2 to 3 weeks after each sale!
[/quote]

I remember the day we purchased Louada Clachan. My dad and I drove to Morris Senkiw's farm at Cromer, MB and purchased Clachan. Actually we had left for home without him and my dad had only drove a few miles when he said to me," what should we do? We will never find a bull like that any place else and we will end up coming back here in a few days and buying him" He turned our old truck around and drove back and got him bought.
Clachan was a son of Bapton Constructor and was considered the largest son of him. We did not have a scale on the farm in those days so dad loaded him a few days after we got home and had him weighed at the local grain elevator. I remember he weighed 2320 lbs that day. My dad was so proud of having a bull like Clachan walking in our pasture. I have a picture of Clachan hanging over my desk and I look at it several times a day. He was considered far too big from that era, and had actually sold for $300 in one of the Louada sales as no one wanted him. Louis Latimer from Remitall purchased him and took him back to Alberta, then sold him to Morris Senkiw's Cromellar herd. Clachan did our herd a lot of good back then. 

I also have a picture hanging in my office of my grand fathers Grand and Reserve Grand Champion Shorthorn bulls at the 1930 Regina Bull Sale. The Grand Champion sold for $600 and the Reserve Grand sold for $960 which were considered amazing prices in that day. If either of these bulls were alive today, they would be walking in my pastures. I agree with Lonny, that what goes around comes around. I oftentimes think we could learn a lot if we only paid more attention to what cattle breeders have done in the past, and learn from their mistakes and successes.

 

[justintime]

I was thinking more this morning about the tiny cattle from the early 60s to early 70s. I can remember some horrible little critters in that era. I remember a close family friend who farmed close to us, had a herd of Angus cows and they would be an impressive set today. They were bigger framed and massive bodied. My dad felt so bad for him, because he would take a powerful set of bulls to bull sales each spring and hardly sold any of them-- simply because they were too big for that era.  I also remember that he offered his herd to me when he had sold his farm, and he was willing to sell the cows at $250 each or I could pick the top half of them for $350 each. My dad said he would love to have 25 of these cows but he did not think he could take the constant disappointment of struggling to sell any bull each year. We decided not to buy them. I often think of what may have happened if I had actually got some of these cows, and if I would have been smart enough to maintain the size and massive bodies they possessed. If I had, I could have been set up pretty good for what is happening today in the Angus breed.

I was also thinking about my parents going to the Louada sale in Ontario to find a bull to follow Louada Clachan. They picked out a bull calf named Louada Bravado, sired by Louada Rothes King and out of an Scottish imported dam from Denend, and they paid a crazy price of $1800 for him. I also remember that he struggled to make 1500 lbs as a mature  bull, even when he was fat! I saw his sire Rothes King, on pasture at Louada, in 1967 when I accompanied Gary Latimer, with the first Polled Herefords that went to Louada. Rothes King is probably the smallest framed mature bull I have ever seen personally ( other than some of the miniature breeds). Louada Bravado would probably rank as one of the worst breeding choices we ever had here.

 

[oakview]

So you're saying Rothes King is similar to your Free Spirit bull?  Hope that's good for a chuckle on a Friday morning.  Rothes King was my hero when I was just getting started in Shorthorns.  Our neighbors ended up with his full brother, Rothes Prince, and I purchased a daughter from them.  That's the closest I ever came to Rothes King, which perhaps was fortunate. 

On a serious note, I am saddened by the comment about our lack of relevancy to the commercial industry due to the emphasis on the show ring.  I'm not saying there's no truth to it, I'm just disappointed.  There is no lack of importance placed on the show ring in most any breed.  Some breeds, Angus included, seem to overcome it and thrive in spite of it.  I keep plugging away and hope someday the pendulum will swing a little bit.

 

[RyanChandler]

And so our relevancy in general to the commercial beef industry has remained the same as well.

In what year would you say Shorthorns were the most relevant to the commercial beef industry?  Were the bulls winning the shows also the same bulls that appealed to the commercial cattlemen at the time?

 

[oakview]

A check of history will show that at one time, Shorthorns were most likely the most relevant breed to the cattle industry period.  Documented ancestors of over 40 recognized breeds, including Angus I might add.  As the first British breed to be used as the great improver in the U.S., I'd say they have had an enormous impact.  Of course, the next breed introduced was the greatest thing since sliced bread and that has been going on for over 200 years.  Their commercial acceptance is quite evident around the world.  Money talks and the Angus Association has the cash to match their genetic defects.

 

[r.n.reed]

And so our relevancy in general to the commercial beef industry has remained the same as well.

In what year would you say Shorthorns were the most relevant to the commercial beef industry?  Were the bulls winning the shows also the same bulls that appealed to the commercial cattlemen at the time?

The simple answer is 1883.At that point the Shorthorn was the only improved breed with numbers, and the market was 3 and 4 yr.old steers range raised.That was the year of the big blizzard out west and ranchers soon realized they had to start feeding their cattle in the winter.It was also about this time that corn feeding in the midwest started and an earlier maturing type was sought.Along came the Hereford bull that received all the credit for the hybrid vigor when crossed on the Shorthorn population which was at that point highly inbred to the bates strain.The Hereford was also credited with being more hardy as well or maybe that was due to the hybrid vigor and the new feeding practices adopted by producers.  :-\
Since the early 1990's I can't think of any commercial oriented operations following the Show ring bloodlines with the exception maybe of JPJ who was not shown and was bred in a commercial oriented herd.Before that I think you would have to go back to the Leader 21 sons of the late 60s early 70's.Here again I am speaking in general terms and I am sure someone can come up with some exceptions.

 

[justintime]

I don't think that here in Canada that we have ever really followed the show ring as a breed.  Yes, there are quite a few popular sires being used that have won some Canadian shows but I think the difference is mainly that we try to show breeding stock especially in Western Canada. That said, I think all breeds in Canada do follow the show ring to some extent. You can find lots of show Champions in the pedigrees of lots of the most powerful commercially oriented bull sales in breeds like Angus, Hereford and Simmental.
I am absolutely certain that the Shorthorn breed has turned a significant corner here in Canada. Yes, we still have a lot to do, but I now see our Shorthorn breeders very proud to raise this breed. I can remember being embarrassed to tell people that I raised Shorthorns on our farm. Now when I tell people that we raise Shorthorns, usually they tell me how much they like the Shorthorns they are seeing. I am completely sold out of bulls and have had 4 phone calls today from people wanting a Shorthorn bull. Two of these are people who had already purchased bulls this spring and already have had the bulls injured. I used to say that this breed would start to grow at a much faster pace, once we got to a point where we could sell our bulls to make the majority of our payments and farm expenses. We have always been able to sell Shorthorn females but right now, I think more Shorthorn breeders are seeing success in selling bulls. I have also noticed that many Western Canadian Shorthorn producers are no longer selling their bulls at fire sale prices just to make a sale. That is a very healthy sign. Personally, we had the best bull sales ever and our yearling bulls have averaged over $6500 with all but 3 sold to commercial producers. We only sold 3 two year old bulls and they averaged $8970 and all of them sold to commercial producers.
This has not happened over night. It has taken a lot of commitment and quite a bit of sacrifice and hard work by a lot of people.
I hear lots of Shorthorn breeders say things like " we just can't sell Shorthorn bulls in this area". I have asked some of them what they have done to try to sell them? Usually I get answer like.... we run an ad in our local paper every year and hardly ever get a call. Well, there is much more involved in developing a market for your bulls. It means you have to leave your farm and get to know some commercial producers. It may mean designing a good website with pictures and videos of your bulls. It may mean, promoting your herd in larger cattle publications. There are lots of other ways to promote your cattle but the first thing would be to produce a product that someone may actually want, and you have to develop them properly and provide all the data you can provide. It may mean nothing to you, but it certainly may mean a lot to many other people. I learned this lesson a few years ago, when we made the decision to not do the ultrasound testing on our bulls that year. We did not think it was being used very much. That year, I had 3 potential buyers tell me they would not buy in our sale without the ultrasound results. We do it now even if there are only a few people who use the data.

 

[Duncraggan]

JIT, I think you have illustrated, very well, that if you stick to your guns, things will eventually start paying off. I commend you for that! (clapping)