Cooperator herds---how do you compensate them?

[oakbar]

I am probably going to try to work with a couple of local friends to use some of their cows as recips next spring.    How do the rest of you compensate your cooperators and what types of agreements do you have?  What things wouldn't you do again?

 

[CAB]

Lynn, I've heard that some PPL put them in for so many dollars per lb above market, some flat rate so much per calf, and some put embryos in on shares. Wiese hereford's flat rate, so much per weaned calf. Make the best deal that you can I guess. Try to be fair and cut your risks along the way if possible. We've only done this once and haven't closed out the deal yet, so I don't know which way will be best for everyone and I guess there is no way to know until each deal is done. Hope this helps, but I doubt that it has. Brent

 

[braunvieh]

Oakbar,
We are trying this with my brother right now. He runs a commercial cow herd. We used 5 of his cows for recips in May, since we didn't have enough. We paid for all the drugs and embryos, all that, and I think only 3 were implanted. If any have ET calves, we will keep the calf but buy it from him at current market price when the time comes. That was acceptable to him as that is how he would sell his anyway. If they don't have an ET calf, nothing lost to him. We also talked about sharing on an exceptional calf, if he wanted to do that. He is very easy to work with and flexible and that helps tremendously. He also let us work with him on selecting cows we thought would be great recips.

 

[klintdog]

The ET person we work with will charge a flat cow use fee of $150 per recip. They then watch the cattle market in August and take the high for the month. You can then come in and pick the ET calves you want from your coop herd and pay $.10 over the top market price from August.

Basically here's the breakdown:
You pay for all the drugs and collection/implant cost.
Flat fee of $150/embryo implanted
August price has a high of $1.25/lb
You purchase a calf in September that weighs 500 lbs. You pay $1.35/lb for her, or $675.

 

[jason]

The ET person we work with will charge a flat cow use fee of $150 per recip. They then watch the cattle market in August and take the high for the month. You can then come in and pick the ET calves you want from your coop herd and pay $.10 over the top market price from August.

Basically here's the breakdown:
You pay for all the drugs and collection/implant cost.
Flat fee of $150/embryo implanted
August price has a high of $1.25/lb
You purchase a calf in September that weighs 500 lbs. You pay $1.35/lb for her, or $675.

That sounds pretty reasonable deal.

 

[CAB]

  I agree Jason, other than Braunvieh's deal with her/his brother, it's as cheap of a deal as have ever heard of. Brent

 

[Show Heifer]

I sent you a PM!
Jen

 

[klintdog]

My math is probably off a bit, because I know it's more expensive than it appears. Here's the realistic cost:

Per Egg Cost - $200 (5 x $200 for 5 eggs = $1000)
Per Cow Drug Cost - $100 (5 x $100 = $500)
Implant 5 cows - $150/cow - $750
Buy 2 calves back. They weigh 650 lbs (650 x 1.35 = $877.50 per purchased calf)

So those two calves cost you a total of $4,005, or $2,002 each.

 

[kanshow]

We've ran a cooperater herd with some of our commercial cows.  There are a few ways you can do it.  What we like best is this one....    The embryo owner pays for drugs, cidrs, transfer fees.    We pay for all cow upkeep, calf vaccinations.    They buy the calf back at weaning based on current market price plus a flat rate of $200/hd.    Since we are actually calving the cows out, we are responsible for getting weights, recording CE data, calving dates, following their vaccine protocol - which has been the one we use.  We tag the ET calves different with the owner's data on them & let them know which pasture their calves are in & basically give them permission to look whenever they want - but they usually call & we take them up.    We do run a bull with the cows because if they fail in the ET program, they can fall right back into our commercial herd.

Now my hubby said that this cost us one year...  there was a heifer we liked from day 1 & she just kept getting better all year.  They took her at weaning time and later put her in their sale where I bought her back.   

 

[KYsteer]

I have tried a couple of different ways, but our current agreement has been the best that we have come up with so far.  I supply the embryos and that is all.  The cooperator herd pays all the other expenses.  I come through a couple of times in the summer and then at weaning I decide the calves that I want.  The only way to make this fair is that we sell all the calves that I deem are worthy.  The rest of the calves are kept by the co-op herd.  The ones that I want have to be sold either in the production sale or private treaty.  After the calf is sold then they get $600 as the market value and then we split the rest 50/50. 

 

[simtal]

how do you compensate the coop herd for lost time if your cows don't take to the eggs?  Better yet, how do you convince people to do it?  Does anyone just take all the calves (junkers too) and just pay flat cow rental fees?  Atleast with the junkers you can recoup some cost.

 

[simtal]

this topic has got my brain rolling.  What if you rented cows from somebody (take all of the risk) put in eggs/drugs/labor etc. and keep the ones that take, fed em, and calf them out yourself.  cows that don't take get sent back to owner bred (maybe get their cows bred by your bull).  Then give the owner the profit he would make with the egg safe cows (say 50-60 bucks a head, max 100).  I think that this would be a good way as your the one managing the cows and anything that goes wrong is your fault.  That way you guarantee calve survival and  nutrition for the cows and calves. Junk calves help your bottom line. The only tricky part is what do you with cows that die or have complications and won't rebreed? Guess that were the big risk is.  Guess after awhile you could "own the cows" over several years if they turn out to be good recips.  Kinda like financing a car.

 

[shortdawg]

I've heard several deals but the one I've heard most is $ 1.25/lb at weaning or a flat $ 800.

 

[Doc]

I like it best when you pay by the pound. That way you are assured they are doing their best to make those suckers grow. I'm always afraid that on a flat rate deal they're going to try to cut corners somewhere to make the most money.

 

[shortdawg]

Do you know where Jamie's recips come from ? I've sure got good use out of every one I've gotten from him.

 

[oakbar]

I appreciate all the thought and input you guys have given to this topic.   I knew you'd all provide some good insight.   Fortunately, I'm a few months away from needing to make an exact decision so I'll have some time to think it over.   If anyone else has input I'd like to hear it.  Apparently, its caught the interest of more people than just me.    

I think the breeder should cover all addtional costs(vet, drugs, etc).  I also like the idea of a "premium" over market for the cooperator.   That seems to protect both the cooperator and the breeder.   I might also consider looking at a flat fee for the use of any animals that actually "take" the embryo plus a "premium" over the market.  The sticking points seem to be is if the breeder is committed to taking all the calves(not really for or against--just pondering the possibilities) and, as was mentioned, what happens if a cow dies, has a late abortion, etc.

Again, I appreciate all the input---let's hear more after you've read the posts and given it some more thought!!

 

[justintime]

I like the idea of the breeder paying all the costs associated with implanting the recips. as well as paying a premium for the calves at weaning.The owner of the recip herd, has to feel that he is making money... or he will feel like the breeder is taking advantage of him. Like every partnership, each party has to benefit. I for one, feel that you can pay a fair premium as you do not have to maintain a reip herd of your own, which is a major cost. The only catch may be in how much say the breeder will have in how the ET calves are grown out while they are on the recip moms. I guess if the breeder feels that the calves are not being managed properly, he should have an option in the contract that allows him to early wean the calves and take possession of them earlier. ... and I feel a written contract is a must. It does not have to be long and wordy, but it must have the basics on paper and signed by both parties. This will save many hard feelings and disputes.

I have seen calf splits work for both parties as well. I have also seen these splits not work well as well. If the breeder is a " known" herd, with established markets for his calves, he will usually be able to sell his share of the calves for more than the cooperator herd owner. This may not cause problems, but i have seen cases where it has. If you think the split is the best way to go, have the breeder or the cooperator herd owner split the calves into two groups. Whoever does not do the split then gets first pick . This way, no one gets all the better calves in one group.There are many other ways to do this as well, such as alternate picks.

I have been considering using a cooperator herd ( s) as well. The main problem I have is finding cooperator herds close enough to me so that I can watch the calves develop. I think it is important to at least see the calves two or three times through the summer so that you know the calves, and see how they have developed from birth.

 

[cpubarn]

Oakbar,

I have been told neighbor charges $300 per embryo that settles, plus market price.  If it doesn't settle, no cost. 

Almost tempting, Fancy embryo's and Blue roans???  Takes all the work out of it.

Mark

 

[Doc]

Do you know where Jamie's recips come from ? I've sure got good use out of every one I've gotten from him.

He has different guys always looking for him, with them coming as a group from an individual.

 

[fluffer]

My husband did this a few years before we got married.  The People with the embryos paid for all the expenses of putting an embryo in,  then they bought the calves for so much over market price- I don't remember now what that was.  But there was one problem.  The breeding's, he was told, would not be a calving issue.  Well, after we buried 1 cow and her 150 lb calf (biggest calf I have EVER seen) and buried another couple of calves and induced the remaining ones I think he ended up with 2 calves for them.  It was horrible.  And in their defence I do believe they thought those calves would be normal size at birth.  I think you have to cover yourself in case of a death loss.  But that is just something we learned on the job 

Fluffer