county fair show- groomed or slick?

[5PCC]

I have been on the Fair Board for our local County Fair for the last 4 years. We are hot and heavy in the planning process for our July fair. I don't know what your Fair Board is like, but we have many LONG (and very late) meetings where things get discussed (and even argued about) at length. We might think that the issue was resolved, only to discuss it at length again at the next meeting or again the next year.

There used to be a rule that prohibited professional groomers at our County Fair. However, because one or two families have extensive show experience, some viewed their family members as professional groomers and interpreted this to be against the rules. We do not currently have a rule that includes the wording "professional groomer", but we do have a rule saying that only family members (parents, siblings, grandparents) of the 4-Her are allowed to groom their animal.

An out-of-town (out-of-state) professional groomer has groomed for the same family for the last two years, so the Fair Board is again wanting to institute a rule about professional groomers (but without necessarily using that wording). I would think that the current rule that specifies parents, siblings, and grandparents should be self-explanatory, but apparently not to everyone.

To put an end to the issue, some are wanting to change the County Fair show to a SLICK show, where absolutely no grooming of the animal is done except maybe washing and brushing. I personally am not in favor of this, but I am wondering what everyone out there thinks?

Thanks! 

 

[OH Breeder]

I love when this topic comes up. There is always a family that does jackpot shows and has some skill and ability. Some family who does not but doesn't like to loose nor do they want to take the time to learn want everything to be regulated. OR slick. If a kid has hair 9/10 someone had to put some time in to keep hair for July county fair. I don't think it matters if the animal has 1" of hair or 4" of hair. The same family can train a the hair on a slick trim animal to make it look good. It won't solve it. Those same people that are bitching about professional groomers will bitch about someone must be cheating cuz even slick sheared those calves look good. You can make some of the people happy some of the time but will NEVER make all the people happy all the time.
Now as a county you could do a local grooming clinic mid March April. Ask one of the professionals to come to your 4-h/ffa meeting of all the clubs participants. THat gives kids plenty of time to start growing hair.

I say leave it hair and tell the families to suck it up. WHen I see a phenominal fit job I watch the person so I can get better. Kids should be learning at this point in their life and if they want to get better they need to work harder. Society has made it TOO EASY for kids today. IF they are challenged in anyway people want restrictions or rules to level the playingn field. IT doesn't matter sally joe worked every day that spring to blow rinse and brush her hair. I think its BS and another example of how we are setting our kids up for failure in the future.
Does the fit and finish matter in a show ABSOLUTELY....its a SHOW. If you want to slick shear then have the kids feed them run them all through a squeeze chute give them all the same hair cut and throw them in a large pen and say judge them like a feedlot.

 

[shortyjock89]

Punishing somebody because they're good at this is the reason why county shows are dying.

 

[Tallcool1]

This is quite a conversation, and I wish there were an easy answer or solution.  I understand both sides. 

On one hand, it IS a show, and grooming is a part of that.  It does take a lot of hard work to grow hair for a July fair.  That hard work and dedication are a big part of what we are trying to teach.  However, it also takes a lot of money to grow that hair.  Just to run our cooler and fans will cost us between $400 and $500 a month.  That doesn't include the cost of hair supplements, hair conditioners, or implants.  I know that we all talk about the hard work, and I agree that it IS hard work.  It is also expensive to grow that hair.  I believe that to be a cost that must be considered before we all just ASSUME that people without hair are just lazy.

On the other hand we have the slick show rule.  I hate this rule, but again understand it.

What our fair has is a combination of the two, which is a Fit Division, and a No Fit Division.  Those that want to fit can, and those that don't want to fit don't have to.  At least that way, the people that do not want to fit have a chance to compete against other people that don't want to fit.  It will eliminate the complaint that it is ALL about the grooming, or at least until the Champion Drive.

OH Breeder made a very good point about the same family training the hair on a slick one to make it look good as well.  I believe that to be true.  Last year we took two steers to our County Fair.  One was a steer that was fat, and the other was one about 45 days away.  We showed the fat steer in the fit show, and showed the other one in the no fit show.  We really just took the progress steer along to get him used to traveling, but ended up winning the no fit division with him.  As you may imagine, that didn't sit well with some of the families.  He was hairy and well presented, just didn't have any glue in his legs. 

No matter what direction you go, the end result will be about the same. 

 

[seaj]

Our county fair is a slick fair. 1/4" max. But we do show at several jackpots that allow grooming. I myself am on the fence as to which is better for the kids as this is really what this is all about. I understand the hair side. It makes the kid spend countless hours brushing, blowing, rinsing everday to achieve the goal of hair. I totally love that idea. An awesome fit job is a work of art for sure. This much time usually leads to a better animal in the ring, and kids that appreciate the true value of hard work.  My concerns about hair are 1. the cost- buying a blower, the brushes, adhesives, etc. Our fair is lucky to average market price or a nickel above so those are just extra costs to come off the top 2. our county fair is terminal- meaning once they show and sell they are to be killed, and to this day I haven't asked the butcher for hair in any of my cuts, we simply don't eat hair, so why not give the judge the closest thing to a carcass we can without killing it. I mean really what do we grow hair for and groom for, to try and hide different faults our animals have. In the end its a steer, it has no value but meat. Why decorate a T-bone with hair, I prefer mine just nice and fat.

 

[OH Breeder]

On one hand, it IS a show, and grooming is a part of that.  It does take a lot of hard work to grow hair for a July fair.  That hard work and dedication are a big part of what we are trying to teach.  However, it also takes a lot of money to grow that hair.  Just to run our cooler and fans will cost us between $400 and $500 a month.  That doesn't include the cost of hair supplements, hair conditioners, or implants.  I know that we all talk about the hard work, and I agree that it IS hard work.  It is also expensive to grow that hair.  I believe that to be a cost that must be considered before we all just ASSUME that people without hair are just lazy.

I help a family that have 4 children and every year they buy calves from me. They went to walmart and bought 2 box fans. They rinse daily many times a day the hotter it gets. They don't do implants they don't do supplements. They wear out the brushes left and right. The kids work their butts off to have the animals. I really don't know how mom and dad do it except dad works for feed mill. I do not assume any kid is lazy because they don't have hair. There are calves that just don't grow hair. But I know that it doesn't take a cooler, implants and fancy supplements to grow hair. Calf manna is just as good as any supplement you can buy for hair. It may not be hanging off their legs over their feet but I spend an entire day working/clipping with their four calves because they grow hair. They have an old dirt floor barn and they keep air moving constantly. It helps they know how to feed one. They have won their class and been reserve division and that is all they live for is the county fair. No jackpots etc.
I have also seen family feed the heck out of one have little hair but work the heck out of it and compete well. I don't think hair makes a difference if you put the time in. YOu can make one look good if the feed and time is put into one.

 

[OH Breeder]

Since folks talked about participation-
I myself support 3 children projects and none of them are related to me. I am not blowing my own horn, I just want our youth to get involved and see the cattle numbers increase locally. The children I work with wanted the opportunity and I have resources. So we work well together. I have offered many kids show supplies and also offered to support financially a professional demonstration for our county kids. I just don't think they can get a better education than in the barn and on the end of a show stick when it comes to determination and hard work. Rather hear a kid say they are wore out from brushing than from playing x-box all day.
What I suggested to one of our county agents was producers provide an animal and the kids provide the labor. At fair time producers get the market price and the kid gets the premium. It works for both producer and kid if the producer wants to solicit more customers. AND it gets more kids involved.  Is this similar in some ways to a scramble you all have down south?
I do'nt want to side track this person's thread. so I will get off my soap box.

 

[Tallcool1]

On one hand, it IS a show, and grooming is a part of that.  It does take a lot of hard work to grow hair for a July fair.  That hard work and dedication are a big part of what we are trying to teach.  However, it also takes a lot of money to grow that hair.  Just to run our cooler and fans will cost us between $400 and $500 a month.  That doesn't include the cost of hair supplements, hair conditioners, or implants.  I know that we all talk about the hard work, and I agree that it IS hard work.  It is also expensive to grow that hair.  I believe that to be a cost that must be considered before we all just ASSUME that people without hair are just lazy.

I help a family that have 4 children and every year they buy calves from me. They went to walmart and bought 2 box fans. They rinse daily many times a day the hotter it gets. They don't do implants they don't do supplements. They wear out the brushes left and right. The kids work their butts off to have the animals. I really don't know how mom and dad do it except dad works for feed mill. I do not assume any kid is lazy because they don't have hair. There are calves that just don't grow hair. But I know that it doesn't take a cooler, implants and fancy supplements to grow hair. Calf manna is just as good as any supplement you can buy for hair. It may not be hanging off their legs over their feet but I spend an entire day working/clipping with their four calves because they grow hair. They have an old dirt floor barn and they keep air moving constantly. It helps they know how to feed one. They have won their class and been reserve division and that is all they live for is the county fair. No jackpots etc.
I have also seen family feed the heck out of one have little hair but work the heck out of it and compete well. I don't think hair makes a difference if you put the time in. YOu can make one look good if the feed and time is put into one.

Point well taken.

 

[MCC]

I vote HAIR!

I hope my soapbox doesn't break before I get done. I get so tired of people that don't want to put the work in that it takes to compete. We used to have one of the toughest most competitive county fairs in the state. Our county ALWAYS was very competitive at state fair especially in the lambs and swine as well as NWSS. We had many Grands and Res. at both shows. Parents and their kids that didn't have the work ethic it takes got tired of getting beat and banded together to talk the fair board into changing our fair to recognize the "supreme champions" which consists of a point system. Rate of gain, test scores, record books and showmanship were how you collected your points. LIVE PLACING DIDN'T count! Sale order was then based on those scores. That way the lazy kid that didn't take care of his animal (as long as he made weight ) could set in the house where it was warm in the winter and cool in the summer and have a chance to sell the " Grand Champion."

I believe if you want to teach our kids life isn't fair then let them realize those who don't work hard to do there BEST job don't get rewarded!

Growing hair, training it and clipping and fitting is hard work. I also realize some calves simply won't grow hair. But I think the kids that try and work hard should be rewarded.

As far as "steer jocks" fitting at your fair when I was showing a couple of families had them fitting for them. My dad always told me "That is YOUR PROJECT learn to do it yourself." I watched those guy's and learned from them. Lucked out places like state fair and Denver and had some very good fitters see I was interested and willing to learn and took me under there wing and taught me an awful lot. Over the years I have made a lot of money clipping cattle for production sales while the kids that had it done for them don't know how to turn on a set of clippers to this day. When I sell a calf to someone I feel I owe it to them if they need help clipping or fitting. Sometimes instead of complaining take the time to watch and learn.

Sorry for the long winded rant I hear boards cracking.

 

[SandyB]

In the fair shows I have been too, adults are only allowed to supervise. There are no adults allowed to groom any animal. With the being said, any 4-H or FFA member may help another kids with grooming, Now if that kid happens to be a damn good groomer, than its ok, but it just can't be an adult whether they are professional or not, not even a parent. There are ways around it, like sneaking your animal to the RV areas or something to make a "fix", but if you have someone on your tail then you are busted.
Personally I think its a good thing as it levels the playing field as most of the kids can not afford to have professional groomers. It makes the kids have to learn. Plus the more experienced are encouraged to help the beginners.

Why are so many people against slick showing? While I think "fluffy cows" are pretty I would think slick shearing would make it simple. The cattle would actually be judged on conformation and market quality rather than who has the best groomed & hair manipulated steer/heifer.

 

[Steer4Caddy]

In texas.  Our county grand brings 15k plus, and that's great.  However, that has brought professionals and only family's that can lose 10k on a chance to win.  I have seen it first hand drive good kids out of the steer barn and into lambs or pigs.  After being skeptical about slicking at first.  There is no doubt in my mind that slicking them is the way to go if you care about the project and including a wide array of people.

You can still display a difference in effort with a slick one but it shows the real calf. 

It also enhances the base qualitys of a local steer producer trying to raise them.  Good slicking cattle are more reasonable and better doing genetics.

 

[vc]

We have a small county fair, that comes a month after our main fair. They went to a slick show, to even the playing field. The same people who won with hair, won without it. They still bought better calves, rinsed and worked the hair, and lastly knew how to feed one.
It still takes a big a$$5&, big topped, clean necked calf to win, they just do not need to be black or hairy.

 

[cowpoke]

The real reason for showing should be to have fun and learn something.It takes a lot more than hair[it does help] to make a winner.If the judge cant look thru the hair get a different one.There is not one calf show worth a tear if you don't win as most kids should be glad for the opportunity as we should be trying to raise responsible adults not a bunch of whiners.Slick showing also requires a lot of work to have the best one.If you hire a fitter and let your child do nothing or do their work at home you have your priorities wrong and I hate to say this but it happens way to much.

 

[DLD]

I have been on the Fair Board for our local County Fair for the last 4 years. We are hot and heavy in the planning process for our July fair. I don't know what your Fair Board is like, but we have many LONG (and very late) meetings where things get discussed (and even argued about) at length. We might think that the issue was resolved, only to discuss it at length again at the next meeting or again the next year.

There used to be a rule that prohibited professional groomers at our County Fair. However, because one or two families have extensive show experience, some viewed their family members as professional groomers and interpreted this to be against the rules. We do not currently have a rule that includes the wording "professional groomer", but we do have a rule saying that only family members (parents, siblings, grandparents) of the 4-Her are allowed to groom their animal.

An out-of-town (out-of-state) professional groomer has groomed for the same family for the last two years, so the Fair Board is again wanting to institute a rule about professional groomers (but without necessarily using that wording). I would think that the current rule that specifies parents, siblings, and grandparents should be self-explanatory, but apparently not to everyone.

To put an end to the issue, some are wanting to change the County Fair show to a SLICK show, where absolutely no grooming of the animal is done except maybe washing and brushing. I personally am not in favor of this, but I am wondering what everyone out there thinks?

Thanks! 

I agree with you that the simple answer is to enforce the rule that you already have.  If they're not willing to do that, then who's going to enforce the next new rule?

I can understand wanting to eliminate outside "help", but if you eliminate all the adults (something others have mentioned), I feel like it tends to discourage younger kids and also those exhibitors who usually show several head - they tend to raise more of the cattle they show themselves, and their families tend to be more involved.  I really hate to see anyone discourage that.

Something else you might consider though, is going to a blow and show format.  Not as drastic as slick shearing, but if they can't use glue and paint, it really takes the wind out of the "pro's".  It makes working hair at least as important, if not more so, than full fit shows, plus it saves time, money, and lots of stress.  It usually leads to the kids actually doing more themselves, and once a kid learns how to make a leg look good with mousse, zoom bloom and a blower, it's a much shorter step for them to learn to do it with glue and paint.  It probably doesn't change who does the clipping before the show, except that in the long run, I believe it encourages many of the kids to do more themselves.

Though a few of us advocated it for years before, many folks in our county fought tooth and nail against the idea of going blow and show.  Our county used to be a regular steer jock convention (some chapters/booster clubs even paid for fitters), and every ag teacher and 4H leader insisted that they had to bring a grooming chute for every market steer shown.  Then one year our new county facility was under construction, and we had to hold our show in a place where time, space, wash racks and electricity were very limited, so everyone grudgingly agreed to go blow and show "just this one time."  That was like 14 years ago and we've been blow and show at both our spring stock show and fall fair ever since.  I've never heard one person want to go back to full fitting. By just eliminating adhesives, we made the whole thing lots easier and more fun for everyone.

 

[obie105]

I showed in a county that had one of the biggest show cattle breeders in the US in it. When I started I was told to watch the kids show and watch them fit and to learn from them. All 4 kids by the time they were 10 could fit. Even if it was a blow and go show or a slick show they would have won because they had the best cattle, could feed and take care of one. Hiring of professionals is prohibited but if a professional is a parent so be it. We always do a grooming/showmanship clinic in the winter to help get people started and then again in the spring. Then sometime during the week of county fair we did a fitting demo. I am not a professional but if I can pass on some knowledge that's what it's about. Maybe those families that are good at presenting one will step up and help others.

 

[j3cattleco]

The families that win with hair will be the families that win without hair.  I typically find that good slick cattle cost more than one that a kid could grow a little hair on and be competitive.  We live way down south and have seen many a kid be competitive with a fan or two and a lot of rinsing. I would rather raise slick cattle but love the responsibility of kids learning to respect hard work growing hair. 

Joshua

 

[chambero]

One additional thing to consider - is your county terminal?  If it is, slick is fine.  If it's not and kids would take thosecalves to future shows, you cant do slick without it hurting kids down the road.

 

[5PCC]

I appreciate all of your comments!

I loved the idea of allowing only the kids groom the animals, until someone mentioned that it would be a stumbling block to those who showed more than one head. I have three kids. They typically show a steer and a heifer each. One parent usually goes to the show ring with the kid and the animal, while the other parent and the other two kids are back at the chute grooming the next animal.

I do know that it is not all about the hair, but I am realistic enough to know that hair does make a difference. I personally think that there is too much emphasis put on the "fit vs not" topic, but maybe people talk about it more because it is more visible. Feeding the animal properly and handling the animal is more important, in my opinion. We don't talk about that much because it is done at home before the show. It is not as visible to the public eye.

I think that if you are going to show, then you need to learn something about all of it. So I work on teaching my kids how to break a calf, how to grow their hair, proper management of the animal, grooming/fitting, how to feed it and raise a market-ready beef, etc. BUT for 4-H/FFA purposes, I think that the emphasis should be on proper management of the animal and feeding (not on grooming/clipping).

For example...My husband has 100 head of cows in his cow/calf operation, but the only thing he knows about showing is what I have told him and he has picked up at an actual show. Once he weans his calves and feeds them for a bit, he sells them as feeder cattle. He does not have experience in raising fat cattle. I have taught my kids what the specific components of their steer/heifer feed is, why we feed that specific component, how to feed them as they grow, etc. These kids know how to raise market-ready cattle better than their father does! Their dad could learn too, by the way...if he would just listen to me.

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

We have 3 Grand Champions and one Reserve Grand in the last six years in our county heifer show. I've heard the talk, oh we need to make this a slick show. Or even talk about no anitibiotics It's freaking heifers you damn idiots this cheit ain't terminal. Damn A- holes had me hold my heifer for 30 minutes just so she could provide a urine sample. Then to find out they do that to scare us into not doing something illegal. What ever that maybe. Then on steer show all I see is drench guns getting them all hopped up.
I just think these people who want to make stuff equal are gutless and are doing nothing more than teaching their children to do things halfass. Slick shows are more for seeing the cattle for what they are, he'll anyone can feed them. Hair shows tend to expose those who don't do the work in the barn.

 

[BogartBlondes]

At our 4-H shows, no one is aloud to fit the animals other than the kids. The only help they can get is from other members of their 4-H club. The leaders, parents and other attendants to the show are not aloud to even put a comb to the animals. The punishment for this is disqualification of the show and puts completion of the 4-H project in jeopardy.

We have had great success with this in our area, it took one kid to be disqualified before the whole show became to respect this rule. If you only have a 'slick' show then the kids aren't able to use the grooming techniques that the 4-H clubs extensively teach. Therefore, rendering the club useless. This way the kids have to 'learn to do by doing'.

Just my opinion, it has worked at our shows.