Creekland Lancer

[librarian]

Could anyone comment on this bull in terms of real world usefulness?
Thanks

 

[phillse]

Just based on the picture, I would have a hard time saying.  He is standing in deep straw and very little of his structure is visible.  Would think he is easy fleshing.  Weight and size wise really had to tell if he would be considered moderate or too small.

 

[librarian]

Right, these pictures don't tell you much. Why did they set the pictures up like this? If its just to make the legs look short it seems unnecessary.
I am just wondering what his real world purpose was and how he was useful in that time. What was the Creekland program and does it tie in at all with my quest for the Old Milkers? Looks like a beef bull, but sometimes it was hard to tell (for me, being unfamiliar)  with dual purpose.

 

[oakview]

He might add some fleshing ability, but unless your goal was to wean 375 pound calves that matured at 850 pounds or less, I would think there would be other bulls to try.  He was a beef bull that appears in the pedigree of some of the popular polled bulls of his day.  Long time ago.

 

[librarian]

Thanks. I see his name in pedigrees, as you say , but the photo made me wonder why. I used to love that kind of bull, but I'm getting over it.

 

[oakview]

I've got several old Shorthorn Worlds with Lancer, etc., in them.  Some of those types of bulls contributed to a decline in the popularity of Shorthorns later on.  We used Leader 21st to improve performance and generally modernize our herd in the late 60s.  We had a Leader 21st daughter born in 1969 that was champion at our county fair and the state fair junior show, 2nd in the open show in a class of about 30.  The judge at the county fair was in charge of Pioneer's (the same Pioneer as the seed corn company) beef herd near Rhodes, Iowa.  They did not include Shorthorns in their herd, but he said, over the microphone at the fair, that if he could find 30 Shorthorn females like her, they'd have a Shorthorn herd.  I don't think the impact Leader 21st had on the breed at that time can be over emphasized.  If you look through the Shorthorn Worlds from the early 70s, a very high percentage of the breeders were using Leader 21st sons or grandsons.  They certainly weren't all perfect, but got at least got us moving in a positive direction.   

 

[RyanChandler]

Thanks. I see his name in pedigrees, as you say , but the photo made me wonder why. I used to love that kind of bull, but I'm getting over it.

<party> <party> <party>

 

[r.n.reed]

Creekland Lancer was probably the last Hurrah of the pony type in Polled Shorthorns.Some would call it the last insult to common sense.The Teegardens were using a C.L.influenced bull when I was there in 1974.He had good proportions but very very small.He might of worked in some grass fed scenarios.
The straw was definitely to make animals look shorter and smaller.What began as a movement of moderation in the early 1900's was taken over by the promoter types and led to the near demise of the breed. Our first lifeline was the few remaining dual herds that had not used the Illawara blood.The best example of this type I can think of would be the Rorvig cows from North Dakota.

 

[justintime]

Creekland Lancer was considered by some people in that era to be an almost model bull. That said, I think it is pretty safe to say that if the Shorthorn breed had continued to promote bulls like this, it would have almost certainly pushed the breed even further into obscurity. I remember some of these Creekland cattle as being very small framed with a lot of waste. A few years ago, I had a fair collection of semen from bulls in this era like Gloriadale Bonaparte, Gloriadale Premium, and several others. After keeping this semen in my tanks for years, I had a fellow phone me and ask me if I would sell this semen. I remembered the calves we had sired by them that had a tough time making 850 lbs at 12 months and I told this man that I did not have any I would sell. I took the semen out of my tanks and tossed it in the garbage. I just decided that I did not want to ever be a part of taking the breed back to that era, in any manner.

The Rorvig herd in North Dakota was mentioned in the previous post. This herd was really not that far from where I live but I had never been to this herd until Bob Miller insisted that I go with him to see the herd. This was a true dual purpose herd of cows that were being run on a strictly commercial beef manner. It was pretty amazing to see these massive cows running on prairie grass with huge calves on them, and both the cows and calves were in excellent condition with no supplemental feed. I think one of the Rorvig brothers had passed away by this time, and I remember being offered the entire herd as the remaining brother was wanting to retire. I don't recall where they ended up going, but I do remember Bob Miller ( Millvale) picking up a couple cows that were over a ton when their calves were weaned and right off pasture. These cows were not where we wanted to end up as well, but they were probably still more useful than most of the pony cattle were.

Another thing I would mention is that today's photoshopping photos had nothing over what the breeders did back in this era 50 years ago. The picture of Creekland Lancer is a classic example of the complete distortion of photos done back then. Gene McDonald told me once that when he started at The Shorthorn World, the breed magazine of that day) that he was told to try to only put re-touched pictures in breeder ads.

 

[r.n.reed]

The real testament to the value of the Rorvig cows was the fact that a small obscure herd with little or no promotion had such a big impact on the breed.So obscure that JIT our official historian doesn't even remember who bought them. Floyd Fredicksen of Montana purchased the herd but soon left the breed and most of them were bred Saler.Still these genetics found their way into many of the leading herds of that time.  Sutherland,Stouts,Bedwell,Deertrail,Fieser,Dugdale,Hoyts,Cardey's and Grahams to name a few all used this breeding in their programs.Some of the notable animals from this line would be DCC Prophet who eventually went to Australia and had a major impact on the breed over there,Nelco Dillon who sired the steers with the largest loin eyes in the old ASA Sire tests and Fiesers Teri Star a noted show heifer of that era.
These cows were not the total answer to a typical beef operation definitely too much milk, but they offered a lot of good qualities,some the breed is trying to return to today.I had the opportunity to see a few of these cows sell in a sale in the late 70's and would call them in the 1400 to 1600lb weight range.

 

[justintime]

The real testament to the value of the Rorvig cows was the fact that a small obscure herd with little or no promotion had such a big impact on the breed.So obscure that JIT our official historian doesn't even remember who bought them. Floyd Fredicksen of Montana purchased the herd but soon left the breed and most of them were bred Saler.Still these genetics found their way into many of the leading herds of that time.  Sutherland,Stouts,Bedwell,Deertrail,Fieser,Dugdale,Hoyts,Cardey's and Grahams to name a few all used this breeding in their programs.Some of the notable animals from this line would be DCC Prophet who eventually went to Australia and had a major impact on the breed over there,Nelco Dillon who sired the steers with the largest loin eyes in the old ASA Sire tests and Fiesers Teri Star a noted show heifer of that era.
These cows were not the total answer to a typical beef operation definitely too much milk, but they offered a lot of good qualities,some the breed is trying to return to today.I had the opportunity to see a few of these cows sell in a sale in the late 70's and would call them in the 1400 to 1600lb weight range.

Gary, you are correct, my memory is not as good as it used to be. I do remember Floyd Fredrickson buying several cows out of the herd, and it seems to be he had got them before I was there. I remember seeing some of these Rorvig cows at Fredrickson's the year before this.  I think Bob Miller and a few other people had purchased a few cows before, and there were only about 20-25 cows left at Rorvig's when I was there. Many of the ones left were very big framed cows, and I do remember them being in excellent condition with those huge calves at side. The pasture was miles away from any shelter of any kind and it was native grass that had never seen any cultivation.
I purchased a Hilltop Lancer 457 daughter from Floyd, named Nelco Wild Lily 7th and she was a daughter of a Rorvig cow named Wild Lily 2nd. The cow I purchased was not as big as the cows I saw in the Rorvig herd. She was probably a 1400- 1500 lb cow and she had a beautiful udder and was a very productive female. I kept a couple daughters in our herd, and then decided to sell her in one of our production sales in the mid 80s and she sold to Dean Fieser in Kansas.
On another trip through North Dakota I remember seeing Nelco Dillon at Fredrickson's. He was a very good bull and I asked if he was for sale. Floyd priced him pretty high and I passed on him. I have often wondered if he would have been a good investment.

 

[librarian]

Maybe I'm crazy, but every picture I see of the type cows I am looking for has a head like this. This head seems to go along with the thick body and nice udder.
Granted, people don't photograph their ugly cows too much.
Has anyone seen cows resembling this walking their pastures? The best I can do at this point is bred backwards from the best I can still find.
If you take an " easy fleshing"  milky cow and manage her for beef on pasture, does the milk go first or the flesh? How many generations?
I understand my head shape theory is full of flaws, buy I do think it's a sign of something.

 

[Okotoks]

I never saw Creekland Lancer but he was the sire of a very popular bull in Alberta back in the 60's Carig White Cloud. It would appear White Cloud was purchased in dam from Teegardins. Boe Kae exhibited a lot of winning often white polled shorthorns in the late 60's early 70's that were contemporaries of the Leader 21st cattle. Some of Carig White Cloud's sons and grandsons ended up in some very well known herds like Remitall, Crestdale, Rothney, Bennet's etc. I know three full brothers by White Cloud were influential Boa Kae Royal Oak, Boa Kae Royal Oak 2nd and Boe Kae Royal Lancer. Two other full brothers had an impact Boe Kae Monarch and Boe Kae Monarch 2nd. I was told the dams of these bulls were bigger cows. Another bull that had an impact was Boe Kae Tralmaker, a son of Boe Kae Royal Oak 2nd. His son Banner Royal Oak bred by John Boake had a huge impact on the breed through sons and grandsons at Banner and Alta Cedar. Banner Royal Oak was half dual purpose (Boa Kae was owned by Bill Boake's sister and brother in law Berwyn and Leta Wise)
The Reserve Senior Champion last week in Denver had 15 crosses of Banner Royal Oak 45F. I would say Creekland Lancer had very little influence in the bull but generations of selection did.

 

[justintime]

I never saw Creekland Lancer but he was the sire of a very popular bull in Alberta back in the 60's Carig White Cloud. It would appear White Cloud was purchased in dam from Teegardins. Boe Kae exhibited a lot of winning often white polled shorthorns in the late 60's early 70's that were contemporaries of the Leader 21st cattle. Some of Carig White Cloud's sons and grandsons ended up in some very well known herds like Remitall, Crestdale, Rothney, Bennet's etc. I know three full brothers by White Cloud were influential Boa Kae Royal Oak, Boa Kae Royal Oak 2nd and Boe Kae Royal Lancer. Two other full brothers had an impact Boe Kae Monarch and Boe Kae Monarch 2nd. I was told the dams of these bulls were bigger cows. Another bull that had an impact was Boe Kae Tralmaker, a son of Boe Kae Royal Oak 2nd. His son Banner Royal Oak bred by John Boake had a huge impact on the breed through sons and grandsons at Banner and Alta Cedar. Banner Royal Oak was half dual purpose (Boa Kae was owned by Bill Boake's sister and brother in law Berwyn and Leta Wise)
The Reserve Senior Champion last week in Denver had 15 crosses of Banner Royal Oak 45F. I would say Creekland Lancer had very little influence in the bull but generations of selection did.

Wow! I haven't seen that pic of the Boa Kae white show herd for a pile of years!  I do remember being at this show when they showed all the white cattle. At that time, we were all impressed with the size these cattle had, but I have wondered how they would be considered today.  I have 3 vials of Banner Royal Oak in a tank here, and have been trying to decide what donor he might work the best with.

 

[librarian]

Thank you, this is all very interesting. Boa Kae Royal Oak is part of my query The other part is Oakwood Conductor.
I have seen progeny of both these bulls and they were not shrimps. I am curious about using these genetics with what I have.BUT, There could be a very costly sort on growth if the cards are dealt out in Lancers favor.
However, if the cows involved in the Lancer matings that produced those bulls were the kind I am selecting for, then the gamble would be more worth it.
I can keep the bottom side consistent across all the matings, but I am reaching back thru these bulls to get at those old time cows. The top side can be transient.

 

[librarian]

DCC Prophet... Says he is great on carcass.
Looking around for places using Prophet, found this site.
http://www.outbackshorthorns.com.au/
Their breeding includes many familiar names. All those cows need is horns!  Maybe this whole head change is related to breeding for polled cattle. I have often heard that Hereford's lost many good qualities when they bred out the horns.

 

[knabe]

It's not a good idea to throw the bad stuff out.


It is valuable to have as a control for further study.


Many such animals have been lost thinking all we need is good cattle to know everything.

 

[librarian]

Thanks for the help. I agree about not throwing stuff out. We have deleted so much of the story already that there may soon be only nouns and verbs in the book, no adjectives or adverbs.
This is what I have to start with, HHFS Sudden Dream. Not perfect but the right type.
If you think of bulls with mothers that looked like this, top and bottom, try to remember I am looking for them.
Among everything else is a Columbus, Leader 21 combination. What other breeders did that? ( or did everyone do that)
I am looking for pictures of daughters of Mollies Defender Adair, or a picture of him.
Sorry to be repetitious, but the same questions keep coming up in different contexts. It took me this long to begin to understand what I have, and you guys are my university.
(there was a question about Creole, but forget that...)

 

[Okotoks]

Thanks for the help. I agree about not throwing stuff out. We have deleted so much of the story already that there may soon be only nouns and verbs in the book, no adjectives or adverbs.
This is what I have to start with, HHFS Sudden Dream. Not perfect but the right type.
If you think of bulls with mothers that looked like this, top and bottom, try to remember I am looking for them.
Among everything else is a Columbus, Leader 21 combination. What other breeders did that? ( or did everyone do that)
I am looking for pictures of daughters of Mollies Defender Adair, or a picture of him.
Sorry to be repetitious, but the same questions keep coming up in different contexts. It took me this long to begin to understand what I have, and you guys are my university.
(there was a question about Creole, but forget that...)

Her grandam produced Coalpit Creek Leader 6th and she is a paternal sister to her grandam!
It seems to me you are looking to create something that might already exist. These Haumont cows seem to be close to the type you are looking for. The Columbus by Leader 21 was a very common cross in the 70's.

 

[librarian]

Yes, I'm just having a hard time accepting that such a mighty river has been reduced to one pool. I think there are some more, somewhere. I doubt if I find them on paper, I'll just see them in a pasture some day.
This is Meadowbrook Lassie 3rd, dam of Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th, she sure looks the part. Thanks for your patience. Wish there was a picture of Blue Rock Lily.
When I get to Nebraska I'll wear out the fence at Haumont, leaning over it to look at the cows, that's for sure.