Crossbreeding

[Mill Iron A]

This applies to all breeds in one way or another but I was wondering what peoples thoughts were about how to crossbreed.  Pure on Pure for an F1?  Would you buy a halfblood bull of any combination? Why or why not?  Do you crossbreed now and if you don't why not?

 

[McM93]

I am not sure what you are wanting to know, but I will jump in. I am not a geneticist, so don't be too harsh on me... (lol) Hybrid vigor is the only free lunch out there...several people and breeds have used this slogan to sell their bulls. Every purebred is slightly inbred. Crossbreeding adds growth, fertility, and longevity in cattle. I don't know that I have seen too many people adhere to a materanl purebred bred to a matenal pure bred and then the resulting progeny bred to a terminal sire. That sounds great, but it would take the fun of these boards out... (lol) I used to like to use only ma x angus or simme x angus females, however, I started noticing many of the better ones have maine and simme in them (I am speaking of clubbies). Recently, I have seen some totally crossed up females bred Angus and their daughters are great cows. Monopoly and his bothers are an example of a crossed up deal being made more consistant by a purebred Angus cow. Big John and his brothers, same deal, the purebred cow (Simmental) makes the equation more consistant. All of that said, many breeders used to throw away all clubby bred females, we maybe should have bred them purebred Angus or even Maine and see if they could possibly make cows and keep those daughters out of purebred bulls. Low cattle numbers and high replacement costs is making this my approach (for now). So, yes I will always crossbreed.  (pop)

 

[kfacres]

The think about crossbreeding-- after a few generations- you lose all consistancy.

Here's what we practice at home (actual in the dairy, but same basic principles apply)... In the beginning, we were strictly Holstein- then grandpa hurt his back, and couldn't AI- so we bought Brown Swiss bulls-- that worked awesome- until we grew tired of pulling calves--  then we bought Jersey bulls to breed the heifers to-- worked great until we decided to upgrade to a jersey herd-- lost all vigor and the whole pot just fell apart.. after that we used a guernsey bull, an ayshire bull-- and about 5 years ago a MS bull.  We usually keep one of our bulls as well, about every other year.  About 3 years ago, we started using the norway and swedish reds-- 

Here's why... We found out, that once you start crossbreeding-- you must continue if you plan to not buy replacements.  Otherwise you will lose all HV.  The thing about breeding crosses, to something else- is  you still have HV. 

right now, we have a cowherd, the size of jerseys (eat like them), that milk almost as much as holsteins (60-80 lb), and give 3.5+ BF; which actually pays the bills for the added premium...

the same principles apply to a beef herd- although this is my direct experience..

 

[McM93]

The think about crossbreeding-- after a few generations- you lose all consistancy.

Here's what we practice at home (actual in the dairy, but same basic principles apply)... In the beginning, we were strictly Holstein- then grandpa hurt his back, and couldn't AI- so we bought Brown Swiss bulls-- that worked awesome- until we grew tired of pulling calves--  then we bought Jersey bulls to breed the heifers to-- worked great until we decided to upgrade to a jersey herd-- lost all vigor and the whole pot just fell apart.. after that we used a guernsey bull, an ayshire bull-- and about 5 years ago a MS bull.  We usually keep one of our bulls as well, about every other year.  About 3 years ago, we started using the norway and swedish reds-- 

Here's why... We found out, that once you start crossbreeding-- you must continue if you plan to not buy replacements.  Otherwise you will lose all HV.  The thing about breeding crosses, to something else- is  you still have HV. 

right now, we have a cowherd, the size of jerseys (eat like them), that milk almost as much as holsteins (60-80 lb), and give 3.5+ BF; which actually pays the bills for the added premium...

the same principles apply to a beef herd- although this is my direct experience..

Cool on the current cowherd! (clapping)

 

[leanbeef]

I like both the F1s AND the SimAngus made from two SimAngus parents. The one thing about using crossbred cows and "composite" bulls is that you take advantage of hybrid vigor in the cow herd as well as the calf crop. Using two purebred parents of different breeds gives you a big burst in that calf crop, but you lose out on any benefits that crossbred cows bring to the table.

My dad and grandpa started with a herd of commercial cows and bred up to a purebred, registered Simmental. After 20 years of working toward that, the bottom fell out of the cattle market in 1994 and cattle weren't worth anything, especially Simmental! Everything I heard in regards to beef production around that time was about how the 1/2 English 1/2 Continental cross was the ideal feeder calf...1/2 English 1/2 Continental cross made the ideal market steer...1/2 English 1/2 Continental cross made the ideal brood cow...It occurred to me the only thing missing from a breeding program where the ideal brood cow could raise the ideal feeder calf which would grow into the ideal market steer, was the 1/2 English 1/2 Continental herb bull! So I started AIing some of our purebred black Simmie cows to some top Angus bulls. That was over 12 years ago. Simmental have made a complete turn around in terms of what that breed even IS, and the SimAngus have helped because people realize the magic that happens when you cross those two breeds. The same thing happens with Simmental and Hereford or Shorthorn...they're the best brood cow you can make. And I like Simmental because they have the grow and performance of the continental breeds with more milk and better dispositions than a lot of them that I've ever been around. There are good and bad ones in every breed, but generally speaking, Simmental x any British breed = super mama cows.

 

[hamburgman]

I like crossbreeding and it seems the loss of consistency can easily be made back in the gains of hybrid vigor.  I like the composite bulls as a way to skip a generation and attain higher hybrid vigor.  Correct me if I am wrong Knabe but doesn't a 4 way cross give you something like 93% hybrid vigor?

 

[leanbeef]

I will argue that crossbreeding does NOT mean you have to make the decision to sacrifice uniformity or consistency. Using sires and dams of different breeds doesn't mean you have to use altogether different types of cattle. Yes, generally, breeds are known for specific traits, but use good cattle from two different breeds that follow the same type, and your calves will be just as uniform as a group of purebreds out of ET flush mate brothers! Calf crops lose uniformity when different types of cattle are bred, regardless of the breed. For example, use a frame 4 and a frame 8 to make a frame 6, and you get a 6 that is genetically a 4 and an 8...those animals don't breed true to what they look like because genetically they're not what they look like.

 

[RyanChandler]

Give me some brangus x shorthorn f1 females covered by a Charolais.  There is no need for continentals on the momma side.  Inject the growth into the calves, not the cows!

Anything 13/16ths British x 3/16brahman x 1/2 continental is the ticket!! 

 

[Mill Iron A]

wow this is awesome. I really like the discussion of consistency.  I've seen purebred breeders of any breed with the most inconsistent set of calves and then have them criticize people who crossbreed for inconcistency.  So do you think its worth raising crossbred bulls? In particular charolais red angus cross bulls?  Most other breeds have done it... not sure why we cant.

 

[kfacres]

The think about crossbreeding-- after a few generations- you lose all consistancy.
Here's what we practice at home (actual in the dairy, but same basic principles apply)... In the beginning, we were strictly Holstein- then grandpa hurt his back, and couldn't AI- so we bought Brown Swiss bulls-- that worked awesome- until we grew tired of pulling calves--  then we bought Jersey bulls to breed the heifers to-- worked great until we decided to upgrade to a jersey herd-- lost all vigor and the whole pot just fell apart.. after that we used a guernsey bull, an ayshire bull-- and about 5 years ago a MS bull.  We usually keep one of our bulls as well, about every other year.  About 3 years ago, we started using the norway and swedish reds--  
Here's why... We found out, that once you start crossbreeding-- you must continue if you plan to not buy replacements.  Otherwise you will lose all HV.  The thing about breeding crosses, to something else- is  you still have HV.  
right now, we have a cowherd, the size of jerseys (eat like them), that milk almost as much as holsteins (60-80 lb), and give 3.5+ BF; which actually pays the bills for the added premium...
the same principles apply to a beef herd- although this is my direct experience..

Cool on the current cowherd! (clapping)

you should see them in person.. more variety than a bag of skittles...  a couple pictures of the uglies... and yes.. we have had calves born with almost zebra stripes... not brindle.. but zebra...  we call our cowherd, the NEW ALL AMERICAN< ZEBRA breed...

one other thing-- we have TONS of black/red carriers..  Cows that are red in the summer, and black in the winter...  

they may be rough to look at, but the feed bill- milk check- and milk components sure are complimentary. 

 

[kfacres]

wow this is awesome. I really like the discussion of consistency.  I've seen purebred breeders of any breed with the most inconsistent set of calves and then have them criticize people who crossbreed for inconcistency.  So do you think its worth raising crossbred bulls? In particular charolais red angus cross bulls?  Most other breeds have done it... not sure why we cant.

We've had this discussion on here before- leanbeef and I.  I agree that some of the purebred people are the most inconsistant-- I think most do that, b/c they are expected to be ahead of the curve-- and most try to appeal to all sorts of buyers-- instead of focusing on what they are good at, and providing their peice to the puzzle. 

In terms of the F1 Char/ RA bulls... if it were me... and I was buying bulls to use on a cross cowherd.. I'd much prefer to use something like Sim/ Char bulls on Angus/ Herf cows-- if I'm in the cornbelt midwest (or basically anywhere but TX and OK) 

I would do this to take advantage of breed complimentarity-- Maternal breeds/ bulls on the bottom side-- terminal and muscle on the top... 

I almost agree with Chandler- in the fact that my ideal HV mating scheme would be Ang/ Herf cows under Char bulls... 

But man, I tell you... Right now, those Sim/ Angus bulls are HOT>>  We visited with our neighbor last night, and he said he can't make enough of them.  He runs just over 500 Sim and Angus cows-- and has someone calling every day for a bull...  he told me this spring, he plans to buy another 250 cows... for 3/4 of a million...  I'm thinking that's 3000 a head...

 

[knabe]

No one is more inconsistent in both the written word and animals than colon blow.

My first language is punch the bully.  Seems like you finally softened up.

Poor baby.  I knew you couldn't take it. Only a matter of time.

 

[T-Majic]

For years my father in law has used 1/2 sim  1/2 angus or 1/2 ang 1/2 gelviegh bulls and the calves have always grown and sold well as the sale barn. His cows have always been bought at sale barn withouth any background on their pedigree. They are prodimately angus influenced but some are crossbred. The ones that I know have some simmental in them are definatley the better milkers and raise the biggest calves. We replaced a majority of the cows in the last couple years with ones I owned of have bought privately and have some background on them.Most of the cows that we have now are as good of quality as some of the guys we would buy bulls from so I figured we should be able to raise our own progeny to produce heifers and even bulls that will improve our herd. So now I am taking some of those better cows and AI ing to purebred angus and purebred simmental bulls to get some crossed females. This I think is going to improve my herd and I will have some better maternally built females to keep back that can be bred back clubby.

 

[leanbeef]

The think about crossbreeding-- after a few generations- you lose all consistancy.
Here's what we practice at home (actual in the dairy, but same basic principles apply)... In the beginning, we were strictly Holstein- then grandpa hurt his back, and couldn't AI- so we bought Brown Swiss bulls-- that worked awesome- until we grew tired of pulling calves--  then we bought Jersey bulls to breed the heifers to-- worked great until we decided to upgrade to a jersey herd-- lost all vigor and the whole pot just fell apart.. after that we used a guernsey bull, an ayshire bull-- and about 5 years ago a MS bull.  We usually keep one of our bulls as well, about every other year.  About 3 years ago, we started using the norway and swedish reds--  
Here's why... We found out, that once you start crossbreeding-- you must continue if you plan to not buy replacements.  Otherwise you will lose all HV.  The thing about breeding crosses, to something else- is  you still have HV.  
right now, we have a cowherd, the size of jerseys (eat like them), that milk almost as much as holsteins (60-80 lb), and give 3.5+ BF; which actually pays the bills for the added premium...
the same principles apply to a beef herd- although this is my direct experience..

Cool on the current cowherd! (clapping)

you should see them in person.. more variety than a bag of skittles...  a couple pictures of the uglies... and yes.. we have had calves born with almost zebra stripes... not brindle.. but zebra...  we call our cowherd, the NEW ALL AMERICAN< ZEBRA breed...

one other thing-- we have TONS of black/red carriers..  Cows that are red in the summer, and black in the winter...  

they may be rough to look at, but the feed bill- milk check- and milk components sure are complimentary. 

Like my grandma used to say, "Pretty is as pretty does."

I don't know if you can link to this or not, but I thought about our discussion about wild type color genetics when I ran across this article. It also mentions dilution and spotting genes along with other variations in color genetics. It's pretty interesting. The cows you have pictured there could sure be a study in color genetics! And they are obviously what I was talking about when I mentioned to you about the wild type color gene. Read this...

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=1354393373e08f09&mt=application/pdf&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3D247d8186c1%26view%3Datt%26th%3D1354393373e08f09%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dsafe%26zw&sig=AHIEtbSi5Da9FXu4Xz_LYVGZYatpFgmu3w

If the link won't work and you're interested, message me and I can email it to you.

 

[kfacres]

Can't get the link to work-  Please PM me the direct link or how to find it...

I have noticed that the BS/ Hol F1's are almost solid black- solid pattern- thus thinking the BW is solid patterned.
When you put the Jersey into them-- you get the funky chocolate black with white markings- thus thinking it is a combo of Hol/ Jer genetics for spotting.
When you take the Ayr- and put them onto this- or the Hol-- you get the black/red color changers (which I believe is a Hol trait).  The Guern-- will inject the black stripes--  We've also had the white face come out of the Guern injections...
The MS-- really cleaned up it- and turned them all to a light/ dark solid red.. or R/W-- but some of the red/ whites are speckled like a longhorn-- not roan-- speckled.  I'm thinking pretty well every cow on the place carries the red gene-- which rightfully so is correct- but we didn't get any roans due to the bull not being white-- and none of the cows carry the shorthorn white.

We try to mate the milk cows- to the color they are-- and put the Swedish/ Norway Reds on those that don't classify.  Those calves come out like MS colored, or solid red. 

 

[leanbeef]

Can't get the link to work-  Please PM me the direct link or how to find it...

I have noticed that the BS/ Hol F1's are almost solid black- solid pattern- thus thinking the BW is solid patterned.
When you put the Jersey into them-- you get the funky chocolate black with white markings- thus thinking it is a combo of Hol/ Jer genetics for spotting.
When you take the Ayr- and put them onto this- or the Hol-- you get the black/red color changers (which I believe is a Hol trait).  The Guern-- will inject the black stripes--  We've also had the white face come out of the Guern injections...
The MS-- really cleaned up it- and turned them all to a light/ dark solid red.. or R/W-- but some of the red/ whites are speckled like a longhorn-- not roan-- speckled.  I'm thinking pretty well every cow on the place carries the red gene-- which rightfully so is correct- but we didn't get any roans due to the bull not being white-- and none of the cows carry the shorthorn white.

We try to mate the milk cows- to the color they are-- and put the Swedish/ Norway Reds on those that don't classify.  Those calves come out like MS colored, or solid red. 

I think the black/brown/reddish cattle you have that "change colors" are the wild gene types...not a black + red gene. And probably originated in the herd from the Brown Swiss or Jerseys. Black is dominant, and so is solid over spots, which is why the Holstein x Brown Swiss F1s are just black. But those females would ALL have been heterozyous for the wild type, so when you came back with a Jersey which probably had that AND the spots, that's where both of those genes were expressed. And THAT combination makes for some crazy colors! Introducing the brockling gene with the Norwegians and any roans from MS and I think you have about every color/pattern combination possible! That should be a research herd lol

 

[kfacres]

The Holstein breed has what's call a list of Black/ Red carriers.  I have seen this mostly in our 'Red' Holstein looking cattle- that are mainly from crossed high percentage holsteins and sired by AI Holstein bulls. 

Here's a breif explanation of it, taken from a quick google search http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Holstein_(cattle):

An American Breeders Service (ABS) ad in the Canadian Holstein Journal in 1974 on Hanover-Hill Triple Threat mentioned one of several colour variants that were not true red. Its existence was undoubtedly common knowledge among breeders in both countries, but up until that time it had not been mentioned in print. Calves were born red and white and registered as such, but over the first 6 months of age turned black or mostly black with some reddish hairs down the backline, around the muzzle and at the poll. The hair coat colour change became known as Black/Red(B/R) and sometimes as Telstar/Red, since the condition appeared in calves sired by Roybrook Telstar. Telstar was the sire of Triple Threat, but nothing about this had hitherto been in print about Telstar who was by then over 10 years old.

Black/Reds were often discriminated against when sold and were barred from Red and White-sponsored shows. In 1984 Holstein Canada considered recoding B/R bulls that had always been coded simply as red carriers, a designation that was not acceptable to all buyers. The breed agreed to change after checking with other breed associations and with the AI Industry. In 1987, Holstein Canada and the Canadian A I Industry modified their coding procedures to distinguish between Black/Red and true red colour patterns for bulls. Holstein Canada dropped the suffix Red as a part of the name in 1990, but continue to carry it as part of the birth date and other codes field.

The easiest pathway to trace when looking at the migration of the red trait in Canada is to work back through the ancestry of ABC's sire, Montvic Rag Apple Sovereign. Sovereign was sired by Emperor of Mount Victoria-RC.

In Canada the sire Agro-Acres Marquis Ned-RC was born in 1964 and was extremely popular in Canada, siring a number of well-known Red and White females that were imported by US breeders. Among them were Blue-Haven Rose Ned-Red. A popular red-carrier sire was Roybrook Telstar.

Hanover-Hill Triple Threat had a huge influence on Holstein breeding in both the United States and Canada during the 1970s and 80s. He was considered a good mate for the daughters of Elevation, Bootmaker, and other highly rated sires from both countries, despite the fact that he carried the Black/Red trait. Glenafton Enhancer was dominant in the 1980s as a sire of sons for AI units. He was a son of Roybrook Starlite.


With this said:  I have noticed mostly in the young calves-- and in the old cows who'll change depending on the season of the year...

 

[leanbeef]

The Holstein breed has what's call a list of Black/ Red carriers.  I have seen this mostly in our 'Red' Holstein looking cattle- that are mainly from crossed high percentage holsteins and sired by AI Holstein bulls. 

Here's a breif explanation of it, taken from a quick google search http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Holstein_(cattle):

An American Breeders Service (ABS) ad in the Canadian Holstein Journal in 1974 on Hanover-Hill Triple Threat mentioned one of several colour variants that were not true red. Its existence was undoubtedly common knowledge among breeders in both countries, but up until that time it had not been mentioned in print. Calves were born red and white and registered as such, but over the first 6 months of age turned black or mostly black with some reddish hairs down the backline, around the muzzle and at the poll. The hair coat colour change became known as Black/Red(B/R) and sometimes as Telstar/Red, since the condition appeared in calves sired by Roybrook Telstar. Telstar was the sire of Triple Threat, but nothing about this had hitherto been in print about Telstar who was by then over 10 years old.

Black/Reds were often discriminated against when sold and were barred from Red and White-sponsored shows. In 1984 Holstein Canada considered recoding B/R bulls that had always been coded simply as red carriers, a designation that was not acceptable to all buyers. The breed agreed to change after checking with other breed associations and with the AI Industry. In 1987, Holstein Canada and the Canadian A I Industry modified their coding procedures to distinguish between Black/Red and true red colour patterns for bulls. Holstein Canada dropped the suffix Red as a part of the name in 1990, but continue to carry it as part of the birth date and other codes field.

The easiest pathway to trace when looking at the migration of the red trait in Canada is to work back through the ancestry of ABC's sire, Montvic Rag Apple Sovereign. Sovereign was sired by Emperor of Mount Victoria-RC.

In Canada the sire Agro-Acres Marquis Ned-RC was born in 1964 and was extremely popular in Canada, siring a number of well-known Red and White females that were imported by US breeders. Among them were Blue-Haven Rose Ned-Red. A popular red-carrier sire was Roybrook Telstar.

Hanover-Hill Triple Threat had a huge influence on Holstein breeding in both the United States and Canada during the 1970s and 80s. He was considered a good mate for the daughters of Elevation, Bootmaker, and other highly rated sires from both countries, despite the fact that he carried the Black/Red trait. Glenafton Enhancer was dominant in the 1980s as a sire of sons for AI units. He was a son of Roybrook Starlite.


With this said:  I have noticed mostly in the young calves-- and in the old cows who'll change depending on the season of the year...

Hmmm...Interesting. I wonder if this is the same/somehow related/anything like/completely different from the wild type gene that's described in the article I sent you. It talks about the Aurochs in Europe that basically were the predecessor of our Bos Taurus cattle today...most were wild colored without any spots, so obviously a lot of changes have happened in color genetics over the centuries. I don't know if those were all initially mutations that were later selected for and became distinguishing color criteria of certain breeds or...? The reason I wonder about all that is that the wild type cattle I've been around do seem to change colors with the seasons/age/maturity...males are often darker than females...it's kind of an interesting study. Personally, I'm really more interested in spotting genetics and what causes certain color patterns, etc. It seems less confusing than the wild type gene to me! Although clearly there's still a lot to learn about that, too.

 

[kfacres]

could be??  but who will ever know, and will it be in any of ours lifetime?

The only setback with using her dairy herd as experiemental for color genetics-- would be a lack of pedigree info through the last couple of generations.  when I left for college 5 years ago, the tattooing and general record keeping ceased... and now it's just turn bulls out, and AI the cows when convient.  The known genetic linkage b/w calf and dam-- does not exist anymore. 

I went through the cows once last summer- ear by ear.. and there wasnt' very many that still had tattoos from when I was around.  Most I knew were 2 and 3 year olds-- and wasn't even a waste of my time to check their ears.  I can tell usually though- what they are sired by: especially the MS sired ones... 

here is two more odd ones-- both calves about 6-9 months old judgine by their horns and the barn they are in...  The one is a color changer--  usually those who change colors- keep the red ears, and outline of red.

 

[kfacres]

four more 'color changers'...  note the red ears   BTW: check out page 6, 2nd paragraph of the pdf you sent me...  you were correct <rock>

there is one other colored cow in here- I think the middle picture...  She's an oddball-- first one like this.. will dilute down to a mouse, almost char diluted color in the summer- check her legs-- that's pretty close to her normal body color...  She's a tiny cow-- very high % jersey...

I've got about 100 pictures of all sorts of color combos.. don't think I have one of the white face though--  Might- have to double check...  I can email them if you'd like to check it out.