Dead calves - was it aliens?

[DL]

Sunny posted this topic/question elsewhere and I thought it would be a good one for us to discuss here - for a couple of reasons - seems many people have had trouble calving this year for all sorts of reasons (at one of the U beef farms in a "southern" area 5 heifers froze to death in 24 hours - so weather has not helped us at all) and there are a lot of good brains gathered here! so here goes with sunny's question (I couldn't remember if she was going to post it or I so being pushy like I am here we go!!)

A friend has lost 4 of his first 5 calves. One born dead (had to pull), one found dead in morning, not sure if born alive through the night, one born on cold day, thought it nursed, but found it very weak and chilled 8hrs. later. Today they had a calf born at 7am, calf born no problem and on his feet looking to nurse at 7:30, found it dead at 2pm. It was sunny and 68 degrees today. It is possible that they are just having incredibly bad luck, but I suspect a problem. I suggested they have the calf posted, but they already buried it. Hopefully there won't be a "next one", but said they would have tests run if it happens again. In the mean time any ideas from any of the experts here? Thanks

part 2 I did not actually see any of these problems. They live about fiteen miles away and just called us for advice, so I thought I'd try to come up with some possibilities. Don't know if the last calf actually nursed, but should have lived more than seven hours in warm, dry conditions even if it didn't. Cows were recently turned out on grass pasture, but not a lot there yet, so still feeding hay unrolled in the field. They are on a good mineral program. I don't think they do any vaccinating at this time. I used to dip navels in iodine, but read a study that said the iodine causes more irritation than it helps, so don't do it anymore, and advised them likewise. They did recently lose a cow to milk fever (vet diagnosed), but Grass tetany did cross my mind, although the mineral has extra mag to prevent it. I wonder about Lepto, BVD, or other things that might be prevented by vaccination. Anyone have any thoughts?


Me again, I look at these problems in this kind of order, and there is some overlap  (and we can expound later)
1) Cow condition
2) Nutrition, vitamins, minerals, energy, protein
3) Calving management
4) Disease history
5) Vaccination history
6)  General management
7)  Weather
8) Genetic/congenital defects
9) Pi** poor luck
10) aliens

I think you were right on with the necropsy suggestion, and I would like to say something erudite here but it will have to wait - just got paged...Ill be back DL

 

[red]

Several things worry me right off the bat. no vaccination program & not treating the navels. Two big no-no's in my opinion. We've always treated the navel & never had any problems w/ irritation. I'd really be scared not to.
Second, it pays to have a vaccination program in effect.
Third, just like I suggested to Show Hef, I'd pull forage samples, feedstuffs & get them check for molds & toxcins.
Those are things right off the top of my pea brain.
Good luck!
Red

 

[Gypsy]

If this was happening on my place it would definately be numbers 9 & 10.  Or it could still be 9 & 10 if they had talked to me recently on the phone or had some other contact. 

 

[Gypsy]

Oh ya, forgot to ask?  Where the calves all sired by the same bull?  Cows related?

 

[knabe]

if by posted, you mean to check for pnuemonia, or other things.  a guy i worked for checked for pneumonia every time for mysterious deaths in an otherwise healthy calf that was checked less than 2-3 days earlier.  didn't move any more cows into the field till after "quarantine".  lost a couple of really fast growers that way.  don't know that much about it, other than it happend.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2662572&dopt=Abstract

 

[genes]

Given the early in life deaths, I think the cow condition/nutrition aspect should be looked at very closely.  Even though they have mineral and stuff, you just never know.  Bad batch of hay, some mineral out of balance.  Besides calcium I know vitamin D has a role in milk fever, but I can't remember it's other effects, if there would be anything that would affect calves.

 

[CAB]

Has anyone read the thread on another site, approximately 1 month ago that had a similiar reports of calves dying shortly after birth from no apparent reason? 2 different producers were losing calves somewhere in southern Iowa, pulling their hair out, frantically trying to get answers to no avail the last that I knew. DL is there any way that you could possibly find any info out from ISU. These situations are very intriging to us, but so devistating to the families that it happens to. This spring as I started calving, the first 6 calves that I had, I only ended up with 50% live rate, 2 born dead early, and 1 pulled with a strong heart beat, but wouldn't take that first breath. You get to wondering all sorts of stuff, like a previous post, the #9,10 thing. As I look back and try to figure this deal of mine out, all of the calves that I lost were out of my first calf heifers, all penned together. I question possibly a batch of feed, but will never know for sure. I've had cows for over 40 years, and looking back, it seems to me that, if you're going to have a bit  of trouble, there will be some on the front end, the 2 calves that were born dead were both about 2 weeks early. I think that they were late term abortions, but would love to know for surre what happened. With this story, it seems to me that there has to be something going on that has a chance of being figured out. I can't remember witch site that I read about the calves dying shortly after birth, but I will hunt it down. I am curious as to what part of the country that this producer is from. The grass tetinus aspect doesn't fit for me. Cab

 

[CAB]

  The other forum that I read about dead calves shortly after birth was the Breeder's world. Cab

 

[red]

Yes, those were from IA. I believe Show Hef also experienced some problems similar to them too.

Red

 

[Show Heifer]

Was me.....in southern Iowa......but didn't get a reply from the other so couldn't have a meeting of the minds.
I have all but given up on a diagnosis except for #9 and #10.  Only thing I didn't do is blood test cows at the time of calf loss or test feed.....all gone.
But a flash thought: Am going to AI cows in a few weeks, would it be benefital to pull blood on those cows then? Or too late?
The posting of the calf was a joke....long story, but had NO cooperation from my vet (found a new one!) and lab didn't find much (really found nothing, but wanted to give them a wee bit of credit for running some test!)
CAB: Are you in Iowa too??
I just can't believe everyone is having crappy luck! Leaning toward all those by-products.

 

[CAB]

    Shoe heifer, I am in the bottom 2 tiers of counties in Iowa. Funny that the guy didn't respond to you with any info. Usually the people that are afflicted are so desperate for anything that might give a clue. There has been enough trouble in the area that I think something is working on the cattle. By-products have been around for ever although alot of the protocals have changed since BSE and we have new ones because of the ever changing energy industry. I don't think my losses had anything to do with what we are talking about, but I only had 8 1st calvers, so to lose 3 out of 8 was bad, and it does scare you. Just like yourself, you are going to be on pins & needles until next year when you start calving. I know this is crazy, but I don't have a good vac. program implemented, but used to. I think that I get along better with out, but I do have a closed herd. Every time something comes up though, I get real nervous. I do vac. calves with 7way+Somnus, And they get an unconventional scour vac. Sorry DL. but it is a must here. Cab

 

[DL]

Yes, those were from IA. I believe Show Hef also experienced some problems similar to them too.

Red

CAB - yeah - I believe we can get that info ... sometime I have a few semi- intelligent things to say aobut the issue --- but I haven't had the time to put it together yet, but it certainly is an issue that hit a lot of people hard this year....

 

[Show Heifer]

Hey CAB, I'm in the SE corner.....did you have dead calves at birth? Or weak calves? I lost 4 out of 20. And I just don't lose calves generally. And 4 was about to lose my mind. DL and Red probably think I did and it is still out wandering somewhere.
Also heard a theory that in this area, several farms have "imported" cattle from down south and out west. So some are wondering if they brought a bug to the area that is new to this part.
Also have a neighbor (lives 2 miles as the crow flies.....no border fence)  that several years ago was diagnosised as having BVD Type 2. He did the best thing  (clapping) and went around and told everyone so they could be aware of that. I vaccinate my calves, but not cows for type 2.  So maybe the connection there?

 

[DL]

OH BOY A CAN OF WORMS!

In regards to sunnys question I would put the following high on my list
1) nutrition  (the only time I see milk fever in beef cows is when the nutrition is inadequate) cow with a body condition of 2 or 3 isn't going to give you a calf with the best chance at thriving
2) management - not to be unkind but if you don't know when they were born and you don't know if they breathed and if you don't know if they nursed your management is not optimal
3) calf care - may be 68 degrees but a calf without nutrition who doesn't get dried off who isn't in a warm sheltered place can get cold/hypoglycemic and die. I also agree navels should be treated
4) by posted I mean necropsy - you don't know why it died if you dump it and if you dump it and it happens again you missed the best opportunity to prevent it
5) in general lepto causes abortions not calves that die,  BVD can cause abortions as well as other things and certainly a good vaccination program could help, but I would think management, and calf care +/- nutrition

UP north can probably add something about nutrition.

RE Show Heifer and her bad luck - I cant put all her dead calves in one basket and so have to think they are either aliens or just pi** poor luck - at least with the necropsy (that took almost the cows gestation to give you info) you know what didn't cause it - I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT ANY CALF THAT DIES SHOULD GET A NECROPSY - INCLUDING AN EXAM OF HEART AND LUNGS - AS WELL AS OTHER INTERNAL ORGANS - LOTS OF THESE BABIES HAVE CONGENITAL DEFECTS INCOMPATIBLE WITH LIFE - IF YOU DON'T KNOW THAT YOU FEEL GUILTY!!

I had one calf this year born with only 1 kidney that drained directly into the abdomen and another with a bladder that was totally obstructed so the little fart couldn't pee and died of renal failure - if I hadn't opened them up I would have been looking for zebras - oh the one was the daughter of the other and the bull was born at the half moon so was the other and the clouds were rising.......

 

[CAB]

  DL, I totally agree with you in theory, but my problem is that I hardly ever get a possitive diagnois, so you just lost money on the dead one and what is your charge to poist  a calf? Doesn't take alot to lose the profit potential from another cows baby. I know it's a pretty bad attitude, but it has been my experience over the years to try to be patient, and think some for yourself. There definately comes a time that you need to post & send off tissue, but economics and results play into my decisions largely.
  Show Heifer, I assume that you have ruled out the possibility of any of the clostridials attributing to your problem. The clostridials is what it sounds like to me, but that is just a semi educated guess. Have a good day everyone. CAB

 

[DL]

CAB - I think producers can learn to post a calf and do a pretty good job if something is really off----we did a section of necropsy a while back - check it out. For example if the lungs don't float or the eyes are cloudy the calf was not alive when born. Frankly (or is it earnestly?) most ot the time there is not a diagnosis with late abortions or early calf death - but in theory you know what it wasn't and that is important information.....more later it is raining and we need it!

 

[Show Heifer]

CAB: I have to admit I can see both sides to this. But my story is a complicated one with lots of dropped balls, on my part too! First calf dies, I called the vet 6 times with no return call from them, so I posted and found nothing to my untrained eye. The second, I posted and took pics and sent to my wonderful friend who helped rule out some things. The third calf I sent to the vet and it was posted 2 days later and the report wasn't to me until 4 weeks later. So ruled out many things that I had panic attackes about, but nothing definate either.
My VERY FIRST calf that died was a pull from a heifer that was probably to long in waiting and that is MY fault, but the calf was alive and holding its head up when I left it to go to bed, dead the next morning.
SO.....did I find out what killed my calves? NO. Did I find out what DIDN"T kill my calves? Yes.
I am learning how to do my own posting of calves (which isn't a good thing to get good at), but I am one that HAS TO HAVE ANSWERS.
This year, I honestly think was a bit of bad luck, bad weather, bad judgement and well, it was just wasn't my year. But I know what it wasn't, and that is just as important as what it was.
By the way, I am still looking, still keeping my ears open and still gathering info.....maybe something will click.....maybe not.

 

[red]

Show Heifer versus her vet!

 

[DL]

CAB: I have to admit I can see both sides to this. But my story is a complicated one with lots of dropped balls, on my part too! First calf dies, I called the vet 6 times with no return call from them, so I posted and found nothing to my untrained eye. The second, I posted and took pics and sent to my wonderful friend who helped rule out some things. The third calf I sent to the vet and it was posted 2 days later and the report wasn't to me until 4 weeks later. So ruled out many things that I had panic attackes about, but nothing definate either.
My VERY FIRST calf that died was a pull from a heifer that was probably to long in waiting and that is MY fault, but the calf was alive and holding its head up when I left it to go to bed, dead the next morning.
SO.....did I find out what killed my calves? NO. Did I find out what DIDN"T kill my calves? Yes.
I am learning how to do my own posting of calves (which isn't a good thing to get good at), but I am one that HAS TO HAVE ANSWERS.
This year, I honestly think was a bit of bad luck, bad weather, bad judgement and well, it was just wasn't my year. But I know what it wasn't, and that is just as important as what it was.
By the way, I am still looking, still keeping my ears open and still gathering info.....maybe something will click.....maybe not.

The Golden Beefpaca Award for persistence in the face of adversity goes to Show Heifer - I think you hit the nail right on the head with your "diagnosis" - too many time people want  a pill or a drug or a quick fix - raising cattle ain't easy and it is much less easy when the babies die.  Cutting up baby calves isn't all that much fun either - but doing what you did I think gave us some answers - do we have bovine guilt - always - will we survive - you betcha - does it bother us when we don't know - ever so much - but it is the people that aren't bothered, that don't want to know, who aren't willing to cut up a dead calf that I worry about. You are (IMHO) a model client ----- I'd take ya on in a heartbeat! DL

 

[Show Heifer]

Thanks DL, do you want to move south???? ;D...had several calves since the last dead one and all is well....have 4 left. So maybe next year will be better! I can always hope!