"diamond line of descent" anyone heard of this?

[librarian]

I was trying to learn whether a deep flank in a cow was highly heritable, and whether it followed the cow or the bull.
These addresses to the 1891 annual meeting of the North Dakota Dairyman's Association are really interesting. One topic covered was the need to keep prairie land in permanent pasture and the unsustainability of perpetually mining the entire landscape for wheat.

But, on topic, this "diamond line" was mentioned in regards to breeding cows, and I wondered if it was a common rule, known by this name, followed by breeders forever.
I am always attentive to this era where old fashioned, almost biblical, observational selection is being subsumed by Darwinian understanding and Mendelian genetics. My thought is the observational lore was full of wisdom that was later disregarded as unscientific.

https://books.google.com/books?id=0x8XAQAAIAAJ&dq=Beef%20cow%20deep%20flank&pg=PA56#v=onepage&q=Beef%20cow%20deep%20flank&f=false
Did you ever read of the "diamond line"—the "diamond line of descent?" There it is, right there. Do you know that femininity is conveyed down the masculine side of the house? You all know how much daughters resemble the father. Do you know that masculinity follows down the mother's side of the house? Sons resemble their mothers. The daughter receives masculinity from her father that she may in turn impart it to her son. The son receives femininity from his mother that he may in turn impart it to his daughter; and thus is united the different lines of femininity and masculinity, and united in this way, coming down in this way, crossing again and forming a diamond, making a diamond line of descent. It must be so, for if it were otherwise, masculinity and femininity would drift apart.

And I am wondering, and asking for feedback, if the short hip I keep seeing in otherwise well built beef sires, especially in old pictures, could be a consequence of ignoring this rule?
I had been thinking it was a consequence of selecting for long loin.

 

[cbcr]

When breeding cattle or any species of animals, different traits have varying amounts of heritability.  While it is hard to distinguish the exact amount that is involved with any one specific trait, there are some tables that are available to show different traits and how inheritable they are.

We know that it is a rare find to find a bull that can equally sire great daughters as well as great sons.  They usually do one or the other.  But even if a bulls is better at producing high quality daughters, it doesn't mean that he can't have an occasional outstanding son.

I have seen such phrases as "The Strength Of The Sire Is The Power Of The Dam."  Looking still at breeding, it has been proven in the Thoroughbred industry,that the female passes on intelligence and physical attributes through something called the "X-Factor". The X chromosome is larger than the Y (male) chromosome.  The female, or X chromosome, is responsible for most of the highly desirable characteristics which breeders strive for. If a mare gets the magic double X, she is even more empowered to reliably produce outstanding progeny, including great sires.  I think that there was a study done a few years ago about the X-Factor and how many of the winners of the Kentucky Derby and even the Triple Crown possessed this X-Factor.

I'm sure this same X-Factor also exist in cattle, but I don't think that anything along these lines have been researched.

Today, so much emphasis is placed on EPD's, along with other performance data.  When you go back and look at historical information on great animals of the different breeds and the amount of influence thru their decedents that they have on the breeds today, it makes one wonder, what would our breeds look like today (1) if our forefathers would have had the availability of using EPD's and/or (2) if we didn't have EPD's for use today.

 

[librarian]

@cbcr
All this breed research is relevant to an idea I have to customize a "small farm cow".
Something to fill the niche the dual purpose Shorthorn breeders were attempting to market to in the 1920's when farming was more diversified.  This would be a moderate sized cow that produced a calf of high carcass quality on grass over the summer and milk of sufficient quantity and quality to make butter and cheese or yogurt  in the winter. I see enough small farm grass fed beef, butter, yogurt and cheese sell at the market I work for to make me believe there is again a need for this kind of animal.

The primary product would be beef from Galloway/Shorthorn base, with an old fashioned dual shorthorn cross on top. (Meadowbrook type) There would be a small, persistent, percentage of Jersey. That would be the brood cow. The terminal cross would be up to the producer- Galloway recommended.

Would this animal fit into the beef crossbred registry or the milking crossbred registry? I do not think registering it Shorthorn Plus would be as useful as the Crossbred registry. I believe lineage and performance records are very important for supporting long term goals with documented effort.
.

 

[cbcr]

librarian,

This cross as you are proposing would be more suited for our Composite Beef Cattle Registry, since some of the breeds you are utilizing are beef breeds.

Everyone's focus is somewhat different, and there does seem to be a resurgence of a "Homestead" Dual-Purpose type of animal.

The selection of a dual-purpose shorthorn would need to be done carefully as the Native Milking Shorthorn is on the Livestock Conservancy's "critical list" http://www.livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage/internal/milking-shorthorn, and today their is a lot of injection of outside genetics used in the Milking Shorthorn, with some of the bulls being 75% Holstein.

We can gather many types of performance data, and we can do genetic evaluations "multi-breed".

Another forgotten breed that is still considered dual-purpose is the Red Poll, but their primary focus today is for beef getting away from the dairy aspect.  They are another breed though that is supposed to finish well on grass.

We are ready to serve the needs of beef producers of all types.

 

[librarian]

Yes, Red Poll would be good- especially after learning they were derived from the Suffolk Duns, way back. That would probably be better than Jersey.
I have my hand on a pretty good Shorthorn bull for the project. He goes to Oakwood And Haumont on top and an Impossible Dream daughter on the bottom.
Could you point me at some good Red Poll semen?

 

[beebe]

@cbcr
All this breed research is relevant to an idea I have to customize a "small farm cow".
Something to fill the niche the dual purpose Shorthorn breeders were attempting to market to in the 1920's when farming was more diversified.  This would be a moderate sized cow that produced a calf of high carcass quality on grass over the summer and milk of sufficient quantity and quality to make butter and cheese or yogurt  in the winter. I see enough small farm grass fed beef, butter, yogurt and cheese sell at the market I work for to make me believe there is again a need for this kind of animal.

The primary product would be beef from Galloway/Shorthorn base, with an old fashioned dual shorthorn cross on top. (Meadowbrook type) There would be a small, persistent, percentage of Jersey. That would be the brood cow. The terminal cross would be up to the producer- Galloway recommended.

Would this animal fit into the beef crossbred registry or the milking crossbred registry? I do not think registering it Shorthorn Plus would be as useful as the Crossbred registry. I believe lineage and performance records are very important for supporting long term goals with documented effort.
.

I am doing something similar using smaller native Shorthorns, Galloway and Tarentaise in a synthetic herd and am now using Wagyu as a terminal cross on my bottom third and my first calf heifers.  I use the top third for replacements and meat sales.  I like your thinking.

 

[cbcr]

We have done some checking and was refereed to Dan Schmiesing, his phone number is 765-425-4515. 

There has been some Red Poll semen that was imported that is from dairy production from England and there are approximately 200 units that may be available.

Give Dan a call as he will be the best source.

 

[librarian]

Thank you for being so helpful, I will study up on Red Polls.
And beebe, a Mad Farmer, no less. Those Tarantaise are very interesting. Another unscientific, observational, rule I have encountered is that the sweetest meat comes from the steepest pastures.
This protein to fat ratio, it looks like the good cheese milk is high protein and the good butter milk is high fat? So, those are different breed characteristics?
This was kind of interesting,
Conservation and value of local livestock breeds: usefulness of niche products and/or adaptation to specific environments
http://www.fao.org/docrep/008/a0070t/a0070t07.htm
The local Abondance (Figure 4) and Tarentaise (Figure 5) breeds play a central role in this new dynamic in the French northern Alps. These two breeds show some adaptation and functional traits of interest for the mountain farming system and the use of high altitude pastures. Table 1 shows the traits which have been assessed by comparisons with other dairy breeds on the basis of experiments or field observations. Some of the adaptation traits are partly due to the small adult weight of the cows (from 450 to 550 kg). The cows of these breeds reproduce well and regularly which is very valuable because the farming system strongly depends on a calendar of calving (see Figure 1). Dealing with the production of AOC cheeses the average milk production is moderate about 5 000 and 4 000 kg per cow per lactation for the Abondance and Tarentaise breeds respectively (On Farm Milk Recording 2002). This milk has favourable properties for cheese processing due to:

1. higher protein to fat ratio (between 0.85 and 0.90) than specialised dairy breeds;

2. intermediate frequency of the B allele of the k-casein (Grosclaude 1988) this allele being favourable to both the rapidity of milk clotting and the cheese yield; and

3. other good chemical characteristics involved in milk clotting (Macheboeuf et al. 1993).

 

[beebe]

The Tarentaise brings heterosis, great feet and udders.  Throw a little hair on them from the Galloway, add in the smaller framed native Shorthorn and I get a very cost effective trouble free 1250 pound cow.

 

[librarian]

This is really interesting. What percent Tatantaise are you working with?
What kind or Native genetics have you incorporated? Was it from top or bottom?
How much Galloway? From top or bottom?
Do you have a picture?

These Tarantaise bulls look like Bonsma dreams come true. Is there any tendency to double muscle?

 

[beebe]

Remember this is a synthetic not a composite.  My definition of composite is when you have a set amount of whatever breeds you are working with in each animal.  My definition of a synthetic is there is no set amount of each breed.  I raise a lot of my own bulls and when I identify a trait that I want to add or subtract I find a bull that I believe can accomplish that.  I use the bull awhile and keep sons out of him that meet my specs.  I have a model and a goal.  A 1250 pound cow that I can winter on crop residue and poor quality hay and have her thrive.  I feed very little hay only when the weather dictates.  I bought a 3/4 Tarentaise bull from Kit Pharo called Black Bonus several years ago.  I have used him and several sons and grandsons and am about to AI a few select cows that will compliment him.  He was a frame score 4 bull that weighed a ton.  If you want to see a picture of him go to Kits semen page and look as he is listed there.  He was an amazing bull.  As for Shorthorns the bull I picked to do what Bonus did is DMH Minn Max Leader.  He is unique in that he is the son of Chruachan Max Leader 551, the top gaining bull over all breeds at the Midland bull test the year he was there.  Yet he is the closest thing to a scotch shorthorn that is walking on legs.  The Galloway influence has come from Sarah Bowman who has used semen from certified meat sires from the 60s.  It is a work in progress and adding the Wagyu  is interesting.  I have not eaten one yet but I  had offers to buy them before they were born.  The better be profitable because they are hard to look at. The Wagyu is  a terminal cross, I won't keep females as cows.