Don't get mad ...

[6M Ranch]

... but sticking a straw of Heatwave in old Betsy, don't make the calf a showsteer.  Asking several thousand dollars for that calf, leaves a bad taste when the new buyer gets last in class.  I'm seeing a lot of calves for sale on different websites, that should be eaten and not shown.  Very few calves in any group are truly good enough to show.  We spent a recent afternoon looking at close to 300 heifers from a "name" organization, and ended up finding four that we thought would show.  Another day, we looked at close to 150, many from $50k - $100k donor cows, and didn't see any that we would show.  That doesn't make the others bad, just not showable.  We don't have a big budget, so we have to go out do the legwork.  My beat up Spirit gets me to work, but I wouldn't put it in a show.  I'm also seeing too many people being "nice", and not giving honest opinions when asked.  It doesn't help anyone to learn, if everyone fawns over their recent purchases.  There's a difference between being mean, and honest criticism.  All of the shows we've been to, the judge still finds things he/she would correct, even with the Grand Champion.  My kids are on livestock judging teams, and are taught no animal is perfect.  When you give reasons, you have grants and criticisms with each pair in the class.  Probably said too much, but just my $0.02 .*

*Another pet peeve, the new keyboards don't have a cents key.

 

[Show Dad]

Know what you mean 6M. Received some photos in the mail and nothing looks above average. The price is set based on pedigree. But nothing was worth showing. Was nice and went and looked was even more disappointed. They were tight walking some even had joint defects. Next year we won't even consider this breeder.

Like you we don't have a big budget so must sift through many to find what we want to show. Even then we end up bottom of class sometimes. But then it's our problem (or a bad judge )

 

[farmboy]

i know what ya mean, a few weeks ago i went and looked at a calf the guy told us was a winner for sure, wanted big money for it. when we got there he pulled it out of the coolroom and i was shocked, i asked him if this was the right steer we came to look at... yes. i thought the calf would be a good county steer but for how much he wanted for it... I think this ghuy is a wannabe steer jock, not sure

 

[aj]

If the club calf deal is a game of numbers you have a chance of getting a good one by chance? If you can take a lump of coal and sell it as a diamond it is profitable.

 

[kanshow]

There are a lot of average calves being passed as show calves. 

 

[dutch pride]

What is you all's definition of a "show calf"? Is it a calf that is shown or a calf that can win a ribbion at a show? In my opinion any calf can be a show calf if someone wants to make the effort to work with them and show them. Winning caliber show calves are a different matter. Yes , I agree that many calves are overpriced because someone calls them "show calves" rather than feeder calves. I think the old adage applies, "buyer beware". If you are comfortable with your judgment of calves then you can spend the time to sift through a bunch to find the best calf for the money. If you are not, you better ask for advise from some impartial person who you trust to give you good advise. I would not nessesarily trust a breeder or seller to set the value of an animal. The value of a calf or anything else for that matter is what someone is willing to pay for it, not what someone is asking for it.

 

[Show Dad]

DP - Agree with you 100%. That is why if I think they are good calves that are say green but might make something I always give the breeder what I would be willing to pay. Or tell them if it is still for sell in a few months I will come back and look. We have bought to many calves from sellers selling green calves then saying we did something wrong when they don't turn out. When I see a green calf with out seeing the dam and sire then I pass.

 

[kanshow]

My definition of a show calf is one that can be shown and will be in the ribbons at the shows.  The calibur of show calf would vary with where I intend to take him and if I'm out to just be in the ribbons or out for the big win.     

Price is hard to figure.  We looked at some calves that were IMO very very overpriced, especially considering they were fairly average calves that would struggle to be in the ribbons.  We didn't even feel like we could make an offer on these calves that wouldn't offend the breeder - there was that much difference.     


     

 

[harley]

6M, I have to agree with you, especially on the giving honest opinions.  BUT, some one posts a picture of a calf they just bought and are going to show.  The deed is done, the money is spent, it makes it real hard to say "hey, I'd try to get my money back on that one!"  Sometimes it's just better to say "good luck" and let it go at that.  Valuable lessons will be learned regardless of how the calves place.  I think for the most part the people of steerplanet are tactful when making comments.  Remember, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. 

 

[DLD]

Generally speaking, I try not to say much about the pics people post asking for opinions.  There are just too many variables - bad pictures of good calves, good pictures of bad calves, different stages and condition.  Plus although I know what it takes for a steer to get along at say, an OK or TX major or a midwest State Fair, and at counties I'm familiar with, but I really don't know how good one has to be to get along in your county fair (especially if I've got no idea where it is, which is often the case).  A calf  I might not want to feed might be just what you need where you are, or vice-versa.

I do agree that there's an awful lot of over-priced junk out there.  I think even a few of the sellers (breeders and esp. traders) have deluded themselves into thinking if they can get 'em fat and hairy and they can shear them out to look decent, then they're show calves - they probably know the faults those cattle possess, but somehow they reason that if they can make 'em look saleable, then they're good enough...  But there are honest breeders and even traders out there that will price 'em right and not to try to sell you something you don't want - it takes a little more looking though, 'cause the people that know those places aren't always in a hurry to share...

 

[knabe]

linebreeding and verifiying homozygosity is too much trouble.  also, linebreeding usually doesn't result in the mutt, filled out look like in dogs.  breeding mutts and expecting predictability takes more time than linebreeding from all i've been reading about.  every once in a while you get lucky like heatwave, and this overvalidates the process.  it's really amazing how easy it is to fall prey to this logic.

 

[chambero]

A few thoughts from someone trying to breed for steers:

The "average" calf has turned into a whole lot better calf than only a handful of years ago.  There is a very small difference between average and elite now days.  That difference is small enough most people can't see it (including me plenty of times).

A lot of folks are also think that when you go look at calves in the pasture that they should look like the dolled up ones they see in photos in the magazines.  If they don't, they can't possibly be worth showing.

I think most people recognize the fact that the best looking cows hardly ever have the best calves.  If that is in fact the case, why do you care if you see the mothers.  Or fathers for that matter.  Most people showing steers sure don't know what a mature bull should look like.  Goes back to the picture thing.

Why would someone sell you a calf that is a whole lot better than average for a lot less money than "average"?  The only reason I would is if that buyer showed some loyalty - even in "down" years.  I have no idea what kind of money you are talking about being willing to spend and I laugh at so many calves bringing over $10K now, but raising show steers is extremely difficult and takes a whole lot of resources to get get ones consistently.  

A good feeder can do plenty well with an "average" calf.  

It costs a lot of money to make one not "green" in show calf prospect terms.  Do you think you don't have to pay for that?  It's all relative, but if you've got a big group your going to pump several thousand dollars worth of feed into those babies - because when a breeder makes the decision to start pouring the feed to them you don't know which ones are going to turn out three months later.  The few you that do turn out have to get sold have to pay the bills for the ones you don't.

Our bottom dollar on any show steer is $1500 - and that is for "green" ones we haven't spent a lot of time on.  We'll send them to the feedlot before we take less.  I think its pretty unreasonable to expect breeders to sell "average" calves for less than that.Calves we work with and get fed up, we expect to sell in the $2000 to $5000 range.  If you are going to deal with jocks, you have to expect a lot of markup on that because they are going to pay that much for some calves they don't get sold.

From what I know, steers that make the sales at our Texas majors (usually varies from 10-20% of the steers overall that show up to a major - typically the top 200-300 hd out of 2000 at each show) have an amazingly high average price tag.  There are a lot of people trying really hard.  It frustrates me to no end that people get mad at a breeder if they spend $1500 to $3000 and don't make the sale.  This little game is extremely hard and competetive.  Exhibitors and their parents have very unrealistic expectations sometimes.  There are plenty of $10K + calves (and I don't mean busts - calves that turn out just fine) that don't make the sale either.

 

[6M Ranch]

I don't begrudge anyone making money on show cattle.  I know exactly the costs involved.  My biggest complaints are cattle that are definitely not show caliber, that are priced high because someone AI'd their commercial cow with a $60 straw of semen.  I also think it's ridiculous to spend $10k to $30k on a steer that at most, will bring $5k at your county fair.  Then, only if it's grand champion. 

You state your bottom dollar is $1500.  Is that for any calf, or ones that have a reasonable chance of success?

I've also heard the myth repeated over the years, that any steer can be fed to the champion drive.  If you don't have the genetics to start with, it doesn't matter what magical feed mix you use, it isn't going to change.  The phrase he/she is a little green, is a bunch of crap.  It's a steerjock catch-phrase to make the uninformed think they can feed these little nubs to the winner's circle.

We're not splitting the atom, it's not going to magically get wider, longer, and level topped with the right combination of corn and oats.

 

[knabe]

a $60 straw of semen is cheap if you do it yourself.  even if you don't, it's still cheaper and more convenient than having a bull.

heck, 30 straws is still cheaper than buying a bull and you can use different bulls.  buy a bull and you are stuck.

60 x 30 breedings = 1800

 

[renegade]

I think pricing has a lot to do with where you live. Around here only a handful of kids spend more than 1200 on a calf and many never break 1000 and they still have awesome calves.  A lot of that has to do with the fact we dont have any "majors" around here

 

[Throttle]

The "average" calf has turned into a whole lot better calf than only a handful of years ago.  There is a very small difference between average and elite now days.  That difference is small enough most people can't see it (including me plenty of times).

I would say that the average calf has gotten better in some ways (thicker and hairier mostly, but also maybe smaller framed and a little bigger bodied), but will contend that the average is actually not as good as it once was because club calf structure has gone way down hill. They are cooler looking, on average, but are far more likely to have skeletal flaws that would have been a major problem years ago. In fact, I'd say that the ideal calf that we are using as the benchmark to judge them by has slipped a good bit when it comes to true structual soundness, due to the pursuit of muscle and "the look". JMO

 

[chambero]

I don't begrudge anyone making money on show cattle.  I know exactly the costs involved.  My biggest complaints are cattle that are definitely not show caliber, that are priced high because someone AI'd their commercial cow with a $60 straw of semen.  I also think it's ridiculous to spend $10k to $30k on a steer that at most, will bring $5k at your county fair.  Then, only if it's grand champion. 

You state your bottom dollar is $1500.  Is that for any calf, or ones that have a reasonable chance of success?

I've also heard the myth repeated over the years, that any steer can be fed to the champion drive.  If you don't have the genetics to start with, it doesn't matter what magical feed mix you use, it isn't going to change.  The phrase he/she is a little green, is a bunch of crap.  It's a steerjock catch-phrase to make the uninformed think they can feed these little nubs to the winner's circle.

We're not splitting the atom, it's not going to magically get wider, longer, and level topped with the right combination of corn and oats.

Our approach is if its "good enough to show", its worth at least double market price.  If someone doesn't want to pay that, we need numbers to go to our feedlot buyers anyway. 

There are plenty of "green" cattle that come on and beat those fat little butterball babies in the end.  For an example, we ran a yellow Charolais-X steer through a big sale down here in April 2004.  We had him floored at $2500.  He wasn't nearly as fat as most of the other calves there and had already slipped his hair.  He didn't bring floor and we took him home and got him showed.  We won Reserve Charolais steer at Houston in 05.

Actually the term "green" probably isn't accurate.  There are lot of calves being bred out of these little show steer bulls and real small cows.  They look like miniature fat calves and are ready to show the day they get home.  The phrase I've heard used that I like is those calves are early maturing and are "done" pretty early in life.  Works great for prospect shows, not so much at market weight.  Yet a lot of calves that won't win as babies have enough growth to them to come on and actually get big enough and put on enough muscle in the end to win.

We sell a lot of replacement heifers.  We take some of them as 3n1s to a show and sale held during Fort Worth.  How well do you think they place and sell if we take them in the same condition as the ones we keep for ourselves that just run on pasture and wheat in the winter?  When we get tired of getting beat by fat ones and bite the bullet put about $600 head of feed into each pair over a three month period they are suddenly good enough to beat everything else there and bring a whole lot more than we spent on them in the sale.  Do you think that makes them have better babies?  No, but people think they are buying a completely different animal and are willing to pay a lot more for it.

All I'm saying is don't judge a baby like you would a finished steer.  A lot of people try to.

 

[Steer Boy 101]

breed your own thats what i do and i dont stand bottom actuayl this year i fallowed some pretty darn expensive cattle and thats fine when you say that you bred it.

 

[Show Dad]

Great for you! (clapping) And I agree!!

 

[worthabit]

Great for you! (clapping) And I agree!!

I SECOND THAT!