Downfalls to biofuels...weigh in

[nysteerguy]

I was just wondering if anyone has heard about the backlash biofuel production has received lately.  The New York Times and Washington Post have been "negatively" covering the methods of farming and production of corn ethanol.  Has anyone had bad glycerin or nitrogen pollution in their water ways?  I am writing a paper on this for my Environmental Law class in college and would like some feedback from people who live in or around states that have large corn or soybean ethanol operations.

Thanks,
NYer

 

[red]

the main thing we hear about is Atrizine in the water.

Red

 

[Dusty]

the main thing we hear about is Atrizine in the water.

Red

Atrazine would never pass EPA regs today if it was just coming out.  It has just been around so long it has slipped through.  The good thing though is that it is relatively harmless.  It has been around for 50 years and I don't think anyone has ever gotten ill from it.

 

[knabe]

supposedly we used to have over 11 million big horn sheep in this country.  add elk, deer, giant sloths, buffalo, all the other ruminants and large fauna that are now extinct, it's amazing that rivers weren't ruined forever.  we know far too little about sequestration and what the cycle is long term rather than the flash points such as algae blooms etc.  on the ocean floor, magnesium precipitates out of water due to pressure.  out of water.  i have a nodule at home harvested from the hughes glomar explorer which was used as a cover by the CIA to recover the soviet sub.  nodules were given out to the public to help spread the disinformation.

 

[jason]

The only downfall I see is that it won't be enough and the govt needs to put boot to but on these big oil companies who keep posting record profits. 

 

[knabe]

the government allowed the oil companies to merge.  of course they are going to increase revenues and profits when you do that.  what's the profit margin and compare that to what microsoft's is, what apple's is, both over 25% for all their product.  some lines like the ipods are outrageous margins.  no one's crying to congress about that.  it's amazing how we complain about big oil when the gov allowed them to merge, won't allow them to drill of the coast (85%) off limits, and now they complain.  typical conundrum push me pull you argrument, catch 22 etc.  govt, get out of the economy, you only raise prices.

 

[chunt2]

Being raised in the heart of the corn belt (Iowa), I can tell  you first hand that using corn for fuel will not work.  Look how negatively it has effected commodity prices in our markets today as hundreds of acres are shifted into corn production.  Now with feed costs going through the roof, you are seeing cattle breeders suffer and farmers are looking to plow under marginal land and put it back into production.  Contrary to what others may say, raising corn is very hard on the land with soil erosion being the main culprit.  If the government really  has an interest in going green, I would recommend using switchgrass to make ethanol.  It's good for wildlife, low erosion, and is not a mainstay in our food industry.

Oh sure, things look great now for the corn producer...but we all know it is a matter of time before the rug is jerked out.  Remember the 80's farm crisis?  Thanks for this topic, it is one that we should all weigh in on.

 

[red]

(welcome) CHunt

As a farm wife I worry about the farm crisis a lot. We just recently bought a new (used) fleet of semis, newer sprayer,&  put up a 100,000 bu grain bin. Not to mention a new JD combine. The JD factory is so behind there is a 9 month waiting list.

Thanks for your input!

Red

 

[jason]

the government allowed the oil companies to merge.  of course they are going to increase revenues and profits when you do that.  what's the profit margin and compare that to what microsoft's is, what apple's is, both over 25% for all their product.  some lines like the ipods are outrageous margins.  no one's crying to congress about that.  it's amazing how we complain about big oil when the gov allowed them to merge, won't allow them to drill of the coast (85%) off limits, and now they complain.  typical conundrum push me pull you argrument, catch 22 etc.  govt, get out of the economy, you only raise prices.

We have to start somewhere.  I do know if they don't make changes quick we are going to have huge problems because the price of diesel is putting a serious strain on the trucking industry.  I don't think a lot of people understand to what extent a trucking strike would cause.

I am not sure exactly the answer, but the way we are heading is just going to dig deeper. 

We have become way too dependent on oil and use way too much.

 

[GONEWEST]

The problem I see with Ethanol. bio-diesel, etc., is that it won't be cheaper at the pump than gasoline or diesel fuel. Given a choice, the guy who has a house payment, two kids and a wife will buy the least expensive product. what is his incentive? Telling him that if he uses fuel from a renewable resource that we won't be dependent on foreign oil sometime 50 years from now??? He'll just give you the finger and pump the gasoline.

The reason that no one says anything about I-pods being too expensive is that our economy isn't dependent on I-pods. It is dependent on energy. Also to equate the profits of oil companies to  a computer company based on profit percentages is like comparing apples and oranges. 25% of 1 is a lot smaller than 25% of a million.  If tomorrow the government cut the oil companies profits in half by saying there was a cap on diesel fuel at 2.50, and gasoline at 2.00, and there would be huge fines for drops in production, don't think I would shed the first tear because they are making 50gazillion billion in profits where they were making 100 before. Fuel costs are ruining our economy. We are not headed for a recession, we are headed for a depression and I don't think the people of today can handel it the way my grandparents did. It's gonna get bad.

 

[steermaker]

The biofuels "solution" backlash has already affected other commodity based endeavors beyond livestock for food.  The food manufacturing industry is now paying record high prices for sweetener, soybean oil, and other comodity items.  This will lead to higher grocery bills for everyone.  Even branded companies that hedge by forward buying contracts are now "hitting the wall' and having to cough up more money for ingredients.  It is just a matter of time before the retail prices on center of the store products go up even more.  Sad part is that the the farmer that sits at the low end of the "food chain" will still not reap the reward on a percentage basis that the ADM's of the world will.  Just my two cents.

 

[Dusty]

The biofuels "solution" backlash has already affected other commodity based endeavors beyond livestock for food.  The food manufacturing industry is now paying record high prices for sweetener, soybean oil, and other comodity items.  This will lead to higher grocery bills for everyone.  Even branded companies that hedge by forward buying contracts are now "hitting the wall' and having to cough up more money for ingredients.  It is just a matter of time before the retail prices on center of the store products go up even more.  Sad part is that the the farmer that sits at the low end of the "food chain" will still not reap the reward on a percentage basis that the ADM's of the world will.  Just my two cents.

. 
I think last time I heard there was about 7 cents worth of wheat in a loaf of bread.  That was back when wheat was cheap so triple that now and thats only 21 cents.  The farmer's share of the food dollar is getting less and less % wise every year.  In regards to ethanol, I don't agrree with the energy policy in regards to mandating X number of gallons.  I do think that the only mandate that there needs to be is that all new cars sold in America be flex-fueled.  This would ensure that ethanol had a market and would allow it to actually compete w/petroleum.  I encourage everyone to read the book "Energy Victory" by Robery Zubrin.  He outlines a very plausible and practical solution to breaking free from petroleum and gives us some very good reasons why we should.

 

[garybob]

I read somewhere, that water's the only by-product of Hydrogen Technology. Why don't We get off our butts & develop that technology? ??? ???

GB

 

[Dusty]

I read somewhere, that water's the only by-product of Hydrogen Technology. Why don't We get off our butts & develop that technology? ??? ???

GB

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, however virtually all of it on earth is already oxidized.  To create the raw hydrogen takes electrolysis which requires fossil fuels to generate the electricity.  Think of hydrogen fuel cells as more of a battery than a fuel source.

 

[knabe]

The reason that no one says anything about I-pods being too expensive is that our economy isn't dependent on I-pods. It is dependent on energy.

life is dependent on energy, yet we make 85% of the coastline off limits for oil production.  we can't drill in anwar, even though we have sideways drilling technology, decreasing the footprint dramatically.  what enviros want is a negative footprint, which is impossible.  energy has a cost.

what if oil was not made from fossils, but friction and natural distillation?

Carbon levels in the atmosphere have been dramatically higher in the atmosphere in prehistoric times.  how could all of the fossils been made without it?  perhaps the ratio of C3 to C4 plants was dramatically different, and that the relatively recent takeover of C3 plants was simply a response to a shortage of carbon?

 

[nysteerguy]

I want to thank everyone for giving their thoughts.  This topic has been something of an interest to me because my father works for the United States' largest private label food manufacturer and he has commented to me on several occasions about the cost associated with food production.  On the other hand I see the cost on the feed bill too.  I wrote my paper and received an A because even my professor was unaware of the dramatic social and environmental changes that were occurring because of this "new" industry.  Thanks again.

-NYer

 

[shorthorns r us]

Time Magazine Takes Shots at Corn for Ethanol...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The push for biofuels in the U.S. and around the world came under fire from TIME in its April 7 edition with a cover story denouncing, "The CleanEnergy Myth." The article's bottom line: When it comes to global warming, "biofuels aren't part of the solution- they're part of the problem."

Biofuels production contributes to global warming because using land to grow fuel leads to destruction of forest, wetlands and grasslands that store enormous amounts of carbon, according to TIME. Much of the article's focus is on the Amazon rain forest, but it suggests that deforestation there is partly related to the drive for ethanol in the U.S. The article describes a chain reaction scenario in which ethanol demand motivates U.S. soybean farmers to switch to corn, Brazilian soybean farmers react by expanding their crop planting into pasture land, and Brazilian cattlemen are then displaced into the Amazon.

TIME also reports that diverting food crops from dinner plates to fuel tanks is inflating world food prices and endangering the hungry.
We have the link to the Time article below- you can jump from that link to read the critical piece on grain based ethanol production.


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725975,00.html

 

[knabe]

what would happen if you could get 10% more milk from the same inputs, slight management issues, and undetectable increases in hormone levels?

an ad campaign that milk is bad for anyone.